A guide to freelancing in Finland • Hacker News Board

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#91

Post by markdown » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

euro_expat wrote: post #72

Hamuko wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. I was under the impression you can start a business as long as you have a residence permit. https://www.suomi.fi/company/starting-a-business/foreign-ent...

I have no idea about Finland, but in Europe in general, you can't open a business cleanly without a permanent residence permit, which takes usually 5+ years to get. In Denmark where I've lived, it's about 9+ years last I checked, but Danes are super xenophobic, so they don't want you there period. The link you sent describes being forced to be approved by some board they have, so it also sounds like Finland has hurdl…

> in Europe in general, you can't open a business cleanly without a permanent residence permit

What about that e-Residency thing Estonia created?

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#92

Post by hopia » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

irrationalactor wrote: post #69

Anybody have experience as to whether this applies to an American living in Finland? Due to FATCA and the US's draconian tax laws around ownership of foreign investment assets...I'm wondering if it wouldn't make any sense to try to start a Finnish company while holding American citizenship. Assuming it would be a tax nightmare if you start producing any real income.

Why would you want to start a Finnish company? For targeting purely Finnish clientele?

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#93

Post by euro_expat » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

lawlorino wrote: post #82

euro_expat wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name a single thing that you would consider innovative from Europe? I'm serious, I just can't think of anything. These are good people for making a slightly better Mercedes than last year's model, but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. The system there does not reward risk takers, the smart move is incremental updates to well established existing products.

> but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. It's funny you say this since Nokia, who are a Finnish company, were the globally dominant mobile phone company for years before the iPhone due to their innovations e.g. doing camera phones well. The 3310 is one of the best selling mobile phones ever. Yes they ultimately fell from that position, but to suggest Europe is some desert of mediocrity seems fooli…

I think you misunderstand. I mean an innovation on par with the iPhone, where it basically changed how people live their lives. I'm quite sure Europeans can make a phone, the problem is they can't hit an innovative home run to save their lives.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#94

Post by versale » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

sam_hosseini wrote: post #30

versale wrote: post #22

Awesome! I wish there were a similar guide on how to establish a cooperative of freelancers in Finland.

Would you like to open an issue on Github and start discussing it?

Opened one. Unfortunately I'm not very knowledgeable about cooperatives, just pondering the idea.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#95

Post by unclesams-uncle » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

davnicwil wrote: post #39

climate_realist wrote: post #36

I think people here who look at Finland and Europe in general and see these social programs to help you get ahead are rather blinded by the reality that they only exist for Europeans. As a US citizen who lived in Europe for 5 years, I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding, you…

Just as a couple of counter examples, in case you weren't aware of them - Spain has an entrepeneurship visa, that any founder from anywhere can apply for. To apply I think you need to produce a credible business plan which shows it'll employ a certain number of citizens (I don't know if EU or Spanish specifically) eventually. - France similarly has an entrepeneurship visa for founders from anywhere. I believe one of…

I've been a US expat in Europe for almost 20 years now.

I spent a lot of time in Belgium (to the point I became a citizen) and am now in Barcelona starting a FinTech.

Europe lacks both a risk-taking mentality and the framework to foster real entrepreneurship.

Spain was able to become much more competitive thanks to the austerity they were forced to go through post-crisis, but there are still way more bureaucratic hoops I have to jump through compared to what I would need to do to start my business in the US.

Incorporating an LLC alone (the equivalent of a c-corp is rarely used by startups over here) requires 3,000 EUR in the bank plus about the same amount in legal fees. In many other countries, it's a five-figure deposit to get a company set up. As the director of the company, I'm required to register as a freelancer so that I "can't fire myself and claim unemployment" which is ridiculous within itself.

Stock options don't really exist in Europe either, meaning I can't really issue them to attract talent. In otherwords, I need to access more capital at an earlier stage to grow my business in comparison to US competitors.

Finally, there is no such thing as chapter 11 bankruptcy within the EU, which limits risk-taking by businesses.

As for France, it's great that they have a visa. However, the legal and labor system is similar to Belgium, making founding and scaling a company a royal PITA. Belgium is a great place to work in a giant company (usually a bank or an insurer) but an absolutely lousy place to start a business, visa program or otherwise.

Europe needs to get this figured out. The continent has too much talent and too large of a market to not be able to be a global innovation force.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#96

Post by unclesams-uncle » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

outime wrote: post #56

I’ve been a freelance in Finland for some time and was surprised by how easy setting everything up electronically was and how little I had to pay if my income was low in the beginning. I was also very surprised to see how helpful the tax office ( Vero in finnish) is, even for questions that could be answered with “hire an accountant” but thanks to their help, I was able to do it on my own. I even made a mistake once…

Spain really needs to fix its autonomo system to let people add to the economy without being overburdened with taxes and paperwork.

I remember reading that PSOE wants to amend it, but I don't know how much of that was just campaign rhetoric.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#97

Post by reitzensteinm » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #58

throwaway13337 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also an American who lived in Finland, Austria, and Denmark for, cumulatively, over 5 years. I now own and run a small but successful bootstrapped American SaaS. What bothered me is that in all the above countries, they try to encourage entrepreneurship through rigged government programs. These programs offer grants and other benefits to 'the right kind of startups' - usually ones that are fashionable because th…

Well, the thing is, investment requires capital. Finland really does not have it. This may feel odd, but really, Finland is capital-poor country. Unless government invested, nobody would. In places like England with lots of private capital it makes sense to leave investment to the markets. But like I said... that market of capital just trying to find the best investment, does not exist in Finland in massive scale.

It's OK if nobody invests. There's no god given right for the well connected middle class to play Silicon Valley for their own gratification.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#98

Post by fsloth » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #97

fsloth wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the thing is, investment requires capital. Finland really does not have it. This may feel odd, but really, Finland is capital-poor country. Unless government invested, nobody would. In places like England with lots of private capital it makes sense to leave investment to the markets. But like I said... that market of capital just trying to find the best investment, does not exist in Finland in massive scale.

It's OK if nobody invests. There's no god given right for the well connected middle class to play Silicon Valley for their own gratification.

You do realize our way of life was built from investment? Scientific revolution gave us ideas but industrialization gave us the means the realize those ideas to the benefit of all mankind. To not to invest means no creative destruction, and stagnation.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#99

Post by ivanhoe » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

euro_expat wrote: post #72

Hamuko wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. I was under the impression you can start a business as long as you have a residence permit. https://www.suomi.fi/company/starting-a-business/foreign-ent...

I have no idea about Finland, but in Europe in general, you can't open a business cleanly without a permanent residence permit, which takes usually 5+ years to get. In Denmark where I've lived, it's about 9+ years last I checked, but Danes are super xenophobic, so they don't want you there period. The link you sent describes being forced to be approved by some board they have, so it also sounds like Finland has hurdl…

I know for Slovenia that you can start a company there as a foreigner, and then get a work visa simply by employing yourself, it's a fairly simple procedure. After 5 years you qualify for permanent residency (I believe that's the same everywhere in EU).

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#100

Post by mattmanser » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #97

fsloth wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the thing is, investment requires capital. Finland really does not have it. This may feel odd, but really, Finland is capital-poor country. Unless government invested, nobody would. In places like England with lots of private capital it makes sense to leave investment to the markets. But like I said... that market of capital just trying to find the best investment, does not exist in Finland in massive scale.

It's OK if nobody invests. There's no god given right for the well connected middle class to play Silicon Valley for their own gratification.

So only Americans can make these sort of companies? This is a deliberate investment by their government, and yes they shouldn't be handing out to Americans who can go to SV and get their handout from their VCs.