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Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

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Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#91
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think you never encountered them, but if you consider all right wing people to be bizarre then they're probably not going to talk to you about politics, are they? HN isn't brigaded. It's just a place where you're exposed to more of what people really think without caring if you attack them. As for demonstrations of media bias, well, do you think the media isn't biased? Here's an article that covers a series of se…

"but if you consider all right wing people to be bizarre" Let's again define the terminology here. I'm a conservative. Many of my friends and peers are conservatives. We traditionally would be "right wing". Only what has been co-opted as the right wing are an absolutely bizarre collection of group-thinkers who have circled the wagons around the abomination that is Donald Trump and tied their ego and identity to defen…

Thank you for saying this. It was the case when I first joined HN that many posts were quite conservative. But here, and frankly across the US, there has been a shift to voices that are indeed deplorable.

I admired Jim Lehrer no end. But a person can wonder if the rules alone are strong enough to withstand the assault.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#92
For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront.

With social media, Twitter specifically, the journalist becomes the main focal point -- unfortunately the biases comes out as we are all human and you begin to get a closer look at how the sausage is made, how much "access journalism" corrodes coverage, and particularly how non-diverse these institutions are (everyone feels like they went to some Ivy or liberal arts college with somewhat wealthy or well connected in journalism relatives). A majority of the content is still really good (climate reporting, international politics, 'explainers' and data backed reporting are all excellent) from the big institutions but I've totally avoided political and most opinion columns since 2016.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#93
post #85
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'd like to take the debate here where I think it should lie: with the companies' management. The problem isn't the journalists - there's good ones, bad ones like everywhere and they can't shoulder all the trust crisis that's out there. The problem is that no one is really checking who posts what online. Medias have had a history of having an article go through 3 to 4 people before getting okayed and being publish…

Then... I want to adress one final fact which is that it's easier to say it's the "journalists" fault if information has gotten so bad. Journalists for sure hold responsability in this but the public that doesnt value the work, isn't willing to pay for it and will click on whatever is coming up without caring about sourcing... Well, that crowd also has its share in how bad the situation has gotten. I don't think you…

All I've seen in your posts is a defense that ethics and standards don't matter because the economics don't make sense. At the end of the day you have a choice of whether or not to be a journalist or to do something else entirely.

If you're doing it for the love at that point, then it's not about the money and no argument can trump ethics and standards there. I think journalists spend so much time reflecting on others that there is little to no self-reflection. Just because your boss asks you to do something stupid, doesn't make it okay to do it.

If you're a soldier in the military and you carry out an unethical, illegal order, you're not only still going to get tried for it but you have the legal right to deny that order. And that's a job where you're already expected to maybe kill people for your government.

But while I'm glad that the military holds higher standards of ethics than most of the rest of us, the job of a journalist can be one with the potential to lead men to war. Ethics are just as important in your job is just as it is in theirs. Your tools are just as powerful and can equally be used as weapons.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#94
post #85
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'd like to take the debate here where I think it should lie: with the companies' management. The problem isn't the journalists - there's good ones, bad ones like everywhere and they can't shoulder all the trust crisis that's out there. The problem is that no one is really checking who posts what online. Medias have had a history of having an article go through 3 to 4 people before getting okayed and being publish…

Then... I want to adress one final fact which is that it's easier to say it's the "journalists" fault if information has gotten so bad. Journalists for sure hold responsability in this but the public that doesnt value the work, isn't willing to pay for it and will click on whatever is coming up without caring about sourcing... Well, that crowd also has its share in how bad the situation has gotten. I don't think you…

I get the feeling that you're somewhat justifying the state of journalism with "you have to make money somehow" and "people are also not valuing good journalism". Consider what would happen if you transferred that to other professions. "Oh well, people die because the house collapses, but the owners want it cheap and I have to pay the rent. Also, people don't value good craftsmanship in buildings", or, let's take it up a notch, "I'm breaking into hospital networks, encrypt their data and ask for a ransom, I have to pay the rent. Also, the general public never valued all the great software I wrote beforehand".

Journalists aren't the root cause of the state of the media, but they aren't unwilling victims either. It's like working for a land mine manufacturer. You're not responsible for the concept of war existing, but you sure are contributing to suffering.

I generally like Thomas Jefferson on the topic:

To your request of my opinion of the manner in which a newspaper should be conducted, so as to be most useful, I should answer, "by restraining it to true facts & sound principles only." Yet I fear such a paper would find few subscribers. It is a melancholy truth, that a suppression of the press could not more compleatly deprive the nation of it's benefits, than is done by it's abandoned prostitution to falsehood. Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knolege with the lies of the day. I really look with commiseration over the great body of my fellow citizens, who, reading newspapers, live & die in the belief, that they have known something of what has been passing in the world in their time; whereas the accounts they have read in newspapers are just as true a history of any other period of the world as of the present, except that the real names of the day are affixed to their fables. General facts may indeed be collected from them, such as that Europe is now at war, that Bonaparte has been a successful warrior, that he has subjected a great portion of Europe to his will, &c., &c.; but no details can be relied on. I will add, that the man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them; inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. He who reads nothing will still learn the great facts, and the details are all false.

Perhaps an editor might begin a reformation in some such way as this. Divide his paper into 4 chapters, heading the 1st, Truths. 2d, Probabilities. 3d, Possibilities. 4th, Lies. The first chapter would be very short, as it would contain little more than authentic papers, and information from such sources as the editor would be willing to risk his own reputation for their truth. The 2d would contain what, from a mature consideration of all circumstances, his judgment should conclude to be probably true. This, however, should rather contain too little than too much. The 3d & 4th should be professedly for those readers who would rather have lies for their money than the blank paper they would occupy.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#95
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You think you never encountered them, but if you consider all right wing people to be bizarre then they're probably not going to talk to you about politics, are they? HN isn't brigaded. It's just a place where you're exposed to more of what people really think without caring if you attack them. As for demonstrations of media bias, well, do you think the media isn't biased? Here's an article that covers a series of se…

> Here's an article that covers a series of severe factual errors in the New York Times, caused by the political biases of the institution:

I don't have the expertise necessary to evaluate this myself. Two issues that jumped out at me, however: unherd doesn't mention that some of the articles they criticize are opinion pieces, and if you Google keywords from their first takedown you'll find more nuanced coverage.

From that I'm (possibly unfairly) categorizing the article you linked as likely of minimal value, and didn't read it through.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#96
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think you never encountered them, but if you consider all right wing people to be bizarre then they're probably not going to talk to you about politics, are they? HN isn't brigaded. It's just a place where you're exposed to more of what people really think without caring if you attack them. As for demonstrations of media bias, well, do you think the media isn't biased? Here's an article that covers a series of se…

> Here's an article that covers a series of severe factual errors in the New York Times, caused by the political biases of the institution: I don't have the expertise necessary to evaluate this myself. Two issues that jumped out at me, however: unherd doesn't mention that some of the articles they criticize are opinion pieces, and if you Google keywords from their first takedown you'll find more nuanced coverage. Fro…

What do you do when it's the NYT Editorial Board themselves writing the Op-Ed that gets facts wrong?

The older I've gotten, the more I've read news stories that are directly related to me, my industry or people I'm in regular contact with. The percentage of these stories that are demonstrably false even on a basic fact checking level is 100%. In most instances, the reporting tells the exact opposite story from the events that happened and every single part of the story is misrepresented.

I started to see this a lot with Vice and BuzzFeed but it's crept into WaPo and most notably the NYT. I can't trust the Grey Lady anymore.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#97
post #92

For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront. With social media, Twitter specifically, the journali…

Another take: Traditional news outlets are no longer trustworthy, and will need to begin building new rapport by paying for known and trusted talent.

Journalists will have publishing control, choosing which platforms suit each piece the best. People will have a much harder time discrediting someone with a focused, proven track record vs a business with broad financial and political interests. It's the natural result of a societal emphasis on identity-focused decision-making. We look for other individuals to guide us through things we don't understand. Individuals are relatable. This is why podcasting has swamped radio.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#98
post #92

For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront. With social media, Twitter specifically, the journali…

I think Twitter has been bad for journalism in that it presents a huge distraction, on top of the dangers of being an echo chamber (which varies depending on who you choose to follow).

But the phenomenon of reporters being able to personally convey their behind-the-scene thinking and experience? I think that’s been a huge boon of valuable, informative insights we previously could only get in memoirs and 10-year anniversary reflections. What you see published as articles is something that’s been trimmed and edited for largely pragmatic purposes and convention, not through some rigorous standard of epistemology.

The NYT’s Rukmini Callimachi is a great example of someone whose tweets greatly enrich her published work. Here is a thread of insights and reporting that became part of a next-day story on Iran and Sulemani: ‪

https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/1213421769777909761

One of the best examples of all is David Farhenthoid, who tweeted the progress of what seemed like a very picayune (relatively speaking) factcheck of Trump's charity claims:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/david-fahr...

> I spent a day searching for Trump’s money on Twitter, asking vets’ organizations if they’d gotten any of it. I used Trump’s Twitter handle, @realdonaldtrump, because I wanted Trump to see me searching.

> Trump saw.

> The next night, he called me to say he had just then given away the $1 million, all in one swoop, to a nonprofit run by a friend. That meant when Lewandowski said Trump’s money was “fully spent,” it was actually still in Trump’s pocket.

Here's a more detailed breakdown of how Farenthold conveyed the progress of his reporting through Twitter, including screenshots of the legal pad he used as a checklist:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/5/13810210/h...

By "picayune", I mean that in late 2016 (e.g. September through November) Trump's charity claims were extremely small-time compared to the actual presidential race. Without a way to publicly convey and accumulate (i.e. snowball) his reporting, Fahrenthold may not have been given enough time (by his editors) to have the critical mass needed for a meaningful story. His work eventually resulted in a Pulitzer-winning investigation, and the impetus for the most damaging ongoing state-level investigations into Trump today:

https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/david-fahrenthold

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#99

Even the "newspaper of record", the NY Times has lost its journalistic process. This is just one recent example that comes to mind. See why Harvard Professor is suing the NYT [1] for completely twisting his post about MIT and Jeffrey Epstein [0] I found this so outrageous how NYT would completely twist words and not make the appropriate corrections when given the evidence. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D135DBWf…

> "Lessig’s defamation suit covers a September 2019 article titled “A Harvard Professor Doubles Down: If You Take Epstein’s Money, Do It in Secret.” He claims the headline misrepresents his interview, where he condemns the donation, but says that “if you’re going to take the money, you damn well better make it anonymous.”"

If you see the egregious defamation there, then you're a more nuanced reader than I am.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/13/21063873/jeffrey-epstein-...

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#100
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caught on camera acting in an extremely partisan manner I'm sorry, but even as political talking points go this makes no sense. He made a "cut" gesture during a live feed, but live news broadcasts cut from one feed to another dozens of times per hour, and the feed he was motioning to cut wasn't of any particular importance to either party (it was a Trump lawyer listening to someone off-camera asking a question). Th…

[flagged]

Please don't take HN on generic ideological and/or partisan tangents. It just leads to predictable flamewars. Also, please don't post insinuations about brigading unless you have some objective basis for doing so. Perception of these things is notoriously (if not entirely) unreliable. That's why we have a site guideline about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Like any large, widely distributed community, HN is divided on any issue that society is divided about—or rather, societies, since it's also a highly international site. Moreover, HN is a non-siloed community [1], unlike most places on the web, so you're more likely to encounter a cross-section of things you don't normally run into. Ironically, this more unbiased distribution of views is precisely what creates the feeling of bizarre contingents, brigading, and so on, because users aren't accustomed to running into perspectives from outside their usual demographic segments. This is something we all experience online.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

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