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A 60 GHz phased array for $10

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Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#91
post #81
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a directional transceiver. Directional transceivers happen to be usable as radar, but these were not intended for that usecase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WirelessHD

Whatever happened to that Google millimeter radar project to allow devices to see your hand positions? It ended up in the Pixel 4 as Motion Sense, but all it does is let you make swiping gestures in the vicinity of the phone. There should be more useful applications for that technology.

The last application I saw was using micro Doppler signal recognition to determine if someone has fallen down. Consider a nursing home or hospital bathroom where cameras would be considered intrusive.

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#93
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, genius if the content is asynchronous. Any real-time or interactive display will need to be able to stream at sub-frame latencies. At 60fps that means less than 16ms, at VR friendly refresh rates ~90fps that means 11ms. While their approach works beautifully for their core competencies, static and non-interactive streaming content, it doesn't really work for any other application.

Doesn't stadia use it?

Stadia is riddled with latency issues. Taking numbers from Gamers Nexus review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0gILReDQsY) in a high framerate game it has 85ms input lag (22ms for local play) and low framerate games it has 110ms (61ms local). Of course these numbers depend a lot on your internet connection.

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. Your options are (1) be small, try to grow fast, (2) be big, (3) be small, don't try to grow fast, and I'm not sure what (4) means. What else is there?

What behavior would prevent a technology like ultra-cheap phased arrays from being locked up due to the corporation seeing some potential in either the technology or the team to buy them, but then not giving both the leeway to develop the market for the technology further? In this specific case I guess we don't know the full picture of what Lattice Semiconductor intends to do, but there are many examples in software…

[deleted]

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#95
post #6

I love how industry came up with ever crazier schemes to stream content from phones and laptops to TVs. There must have been three different attempts involving WiFi alone, but this phased array mmWave 60 GHz million bucks basic research abomination surely takes the cake. Meanwhile, some Google engineer realized you could solve 90% of phone-to-TV streaming applications and 100% of the hard technical problems by just t…

Yes, genius if the content is asynchronous. Any real-time or interactive display will need to be able to stream at sub-frame latencies. At 60fps that means less than 16ms, at VR friendly refresh rates ~90fps that means 11ms. While their approach works beautifully for their core competencies, static and non-interactive streaming content, it doesn't really work for any other application.

To be fair, the idea of a centralized computer generating content for dumb terminals to display has been around since the dawn of computing. Terminals connected to mainframes. Local X servers drew content as requested by remote X clients. The idea of having all your software and data on a very powerful computer inside your home (or pocket) is the crazy new one.

Certainly the concerns and dynamics of the situation are different now than in the 70s and 80s, but some of the thought processes are the same. People want to stream video games because they don't have $2000 up front to lay out on a gaming PC. Streaming lets them pay $5 a month instead, and unlike credit, there is no commitment. That's valuable. Greed is another reason for the cloud. There is no reason why someone should pay $10 per month for Photoshop, but since it's the only option, people do. That's free money for Adobe's shareholders.

I can see why people try to poo-pooh this stuff; computing is built on hobbyist experimentation, and the cloud takes all that away. You can't write your own video game. You can't tweak settings, or make mods. You just get a game that someone else made. But from a technical standpoint, streaming stuff is probably going to work. I have less than 1ms ping to a nearby datacenter (speed of light distance: 8 microseconds), and so do 10 million of my neighbors, so it's probably quite profitable to have a collection of high-density GPUs and CPUs rendering games for a few peak hours a day and then training machine learning models outside those hours. The technical challenges are minimal; the idea has been around for 50 years. The actual challenge is getting the people who own the cables in the ground between your house and that datacenter to actually switch packets quickly enough to make it all work. When you were connecting a mainframe in the basement to terminals upstairs, you made it work because it was your job. But now, one company owns all the cables and another wants to make content to send over those cables, and the incentives no longer align. Sure, Spectrum COULD update their core routers... but they could also not do that, and then your video game streaming service is dead. (Meanwhile, they dream of showing up and making their own video game streaming service. They have as much time as they want, because they own the cables!)

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#96
post #6

I love how industry came up with ever crazier schemes to stream content from phones and laptops to TVs. There must have been three different attempts involving WiFi alone, but this phased array mmWave 60 GHz million bucks basic research abomination surely takes the cake. Meanwhile, some Google engineer realized you could solve 90% of phone-to-TV streaming applications and 100% of the hard technical problems by just t…

Yes, genius if the content is asynchronous. Any real-time or interactive display will need to be able to stream at sub-frame latencies. At 60fps that means less than 16ms, at VR friendly refresh rates ~90fps that means 11ms. While their approach works beautifully for their core competencies, static and non-interactive streaming content, it doesn't really work for any other application.

[deleted]

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, genius if the content is asynchronous. Any real-time or interactive display will need to be able to stream at sub-frame latencies. At 60fps that means less than 16ms, at VR friendly refresh rates ~90fps that means 11ms. While their approach works beautifully for their core competencies, static and non-interactive streaming content, it doesn't really work for any other application.

To be fair, the idea of a centralized computer generating content for dumb terminals to display has been around since the dawn of computing. Terminals connected to mainframes. Local X servers drew content as requested by remote X clients. The idea of having all your software and data on a very powerful computer inside your home (or pocket) is the crazy new one. Certainly the concerns and dynamics of the situation are…

I think it'll become easier to write your own cloud-streamed video game in the maker/hobbyist kind of way, even if the cheap or open source Stadia-workalike backend hasn't arrived just yet. (Of course Google might open up Stadia itself at some point too)

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#98
post #79
post #6

I love how industry came up with ever crazier schemes to stream content from phones and laptops to TVs. There must have been three different attempts involving WiFi alone, but this phased array mmWave 60 GHz million bucks basic research abomination surely takes the cake. Meanwhile, some Google engineer realized you could solve 90% of phone-to-TV streaming applications and 100% of the hard technical problems by just t…

You mean Apple. AirPlay was there years before google made a move in this area.

The f with downvotes? Just check your sources:

Airplay: 2010

Miracast: 2012

Google Cast/ChromeCast: 2013

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#99
post #79
post #6

I love how industry came up with ever crazier schemes to stream content from phones and laptops to TVs. There must have been three different attempts involving WiFi alone, but this phased array mmWave 60 GHz million bucks basic research abomination surely takes the cake. Meanwhile, some Google engineer realized you could solve 90% of phone-to-TV streaming applications and 100% of the hard technical problems by just t…

You mean Apple. AirPlay was there years before google made a move in this area.

If we're going to talk about who did it first, DLNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Allianc...) came out in 2003 and had the concept of a "renderer".

A renderer is a device that receives commands to go pull some media from somewhere and start playing it. And that can include video.

So the concept has been around a long time.

Re: A 60 GHz phased array for $10

#100
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't stadia use it?

Stadia is riddled with latency issues. Taking numbers from Gamers Nexus review ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0gILReDQsY ) in a high framerate game it has 85ms input lag (22ms for local play) and low framerate games it has 110ms (61ms local). Of course these numbers depend a lot on your internet connection.

Even with mediocre routing Steam Remote Play beats these times by being 3x faster while also moving more Mbit. (~40 ms, 25 Mbit.)

The limitation on speed there was the ISPs insane peering scheme - Orange Poland is a dinosaur so everything cross network (that does not pay their scalper peering rates) got routed out of country and back.

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