Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#91

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

> "If we had a military budget that was more inline with simply keeping our own country safe, we would have a ton more money to take care of the people who really need it."

Resulting in a new wave of rearmament and arms races across the entire planet as everybody scrambles to build up their military in the resulting power vacuum. If you want to see another wave of all-out wars in your lifetime, well, that's how you get it.

The United States has been amply repaid for its military budget (despite it being put to stupid use by certain Presidents) in terms of global political and economic stability, which is good for business.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#92

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #46

soulofmischief wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US citizen sees a fraction of their tax dollar ever actually reach the ground. The rest gets caught up in people's pockets on the way down. We would need to adjust for this but it's unclear how to create a heuristic.

Do you have evidence that there's more friction/graft in the US than, say, Finland?

[deleted]

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#93

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

TacticalTable wrote: post #66

ianleeclark wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you adding the 4600 and the 1900 together? Those 4600 have been homed.

Homed by a process that the United States also doesn't have and would need. It would be dishonest to compare the rates without including the cases that Finland has already solved through a similar (but not as far reaching) program.

I still don't believe in fractional reserve banking.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#94

Post by aglavine » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #43

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

Assuming, of course, that if Finland had to provide for its own defense (rather than relying on us), they would still have money left over for social programs.

1. USA cuts military budget

2. Russia invades Finland. USA does nothing.

3. Homelessness in Finland peaks

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#95

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

didericis wrote: post #83

gamblor956 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

My understanding was that many of the institutions that housed and treated mentally ill people were closed in the 70s due to public outcry about mistreatment. The wikipedia article on deinstitutionalization in the US seems to corroborate this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalization_in_th... . It sounds like some institutions were closed after that movement got going, so I wouldn’t be surprised if inst…

No, the closure of mental institutions occurred during the Reagan administration because he cut funding for treating mental illness from his budget.

In CA, when he was governor, Reagan ordered the closure of many facilities.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#96

Post by jandrese » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

34679 wrote: post #75

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

Oregon's budget for retired state employees: $100 Billion I tried to find the same for California, but it seems they do a better job of hiding it. My point is that we are spending a tremendous amount of money on former government employees, so they can have nice homes, good healthcare, and a quality education for their children. But in the process, we're neglecting a large portion of the population that those people…

If I'm looking for money to help the poor I'm not going to start by raiding pensions. That would be self destructive.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#97

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #52

gamblor956 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

There was a massive change from institutional care to ambulatory care at the start of the 90:s, coinciding with the severe recession. Basically a big resource cut. I don't think it was ever reversed. (Don't know much about the sector.)

Reagan was president in the early 1980s. The closure of most mental health facilities preceded the Bush recession.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#98

Post by soulofmischief » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #46

soulofmischief wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US citizen sees a fraction of their tax dollar ever actually reach the ground. The rest gets caught up in people's pockets on the way down. We would need to adjust for this but it's unclear how to create a heuristic.

Do you have evidence that there's more friction/graft in the US than, say, Finland?

I don't, because I don't know how to calculate it. Like I said, we need a heuristic but I don't know how to go about it. But it's an important qualifier when we're trying to isolate this problem to just the economics of solving homelessness.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#99

Post by esotericn » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #13

maxharris wrote: post #3

I take issue with the practice of labeling everyone on the street as "homeless", because the truth is that there are many different causes: * battered spouses fleeing domestic violence * runaway teenagers * veterans whose mental and physical injuries * debilitating mental illness * impossibly high housing costs due to NIMBYism and local regulations * alcoholism, drug, gambling addiction That's not an exhaustive list,…

>Does that mean that it's valid to label us both as "carless"? Sure....I don't own a car, I have zero issue with being labelled as carless. It's very much true. I lack a car, I am carless. My reason for lacking one may very well be different than yours, but the effects of not having cars are probably similar between us. Such as walking, biking or relying on public transit to travel, being limited on locations one can…

Right, but there's a huge distinction between having no car by choice, and having no car (particularly outside of metro areas), but really wanting one, because you can't afford it / have no licence / whatever.

That's his point. I've been hitchhiking before and slept outside loads. It's not meaningful to call that 'homelessness'. Is a nomad homeless?

Someone who simply falls behind on the rent and bounces around friends' sofas is in a very different situation to someone who has serious mental and/or physical health issues and starts to completely fall apart as a person.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#100

Post by teekert » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

I recently, with work, did a tour around Eindhoven (the Netherlands) together with Homeless people. I learned that one never has to be homeless in that city, there are many locations to get food, shelter and help. The homeless people on the streets have such severe ADHD that sleeping halls stress them out, or they have other mental issues, can't deal with authority, have a severe lack of trust or fear for the healthcare system, etc. It is impossible for a healthy mind to stay homeless (unless by choice).