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How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

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Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#91

Post by viraptor »

surewhynat wrote: post #77
Const-me wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. > many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including Russians living in Crimea Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that number declining over time: https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychno... (Russian). 38% is indeed many people, but…

This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ... The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury…

Apart from the stuff mentioned in the sibling comment, the numbers don't even pass a smell test.

That's 89% turnout, with international observers being denied entry. Compared to presidential election 2010 where Crimea had only 63.1% voters that bothered to act.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#92

Post by ossworkerrights »

elfexec wrote: post #14
ossworkerrights wrote: post #2

Curious how world politics will change once electric vehicles become mainstream and there is little need for oil.

It's not about oil necessarily. It's about energy source or more generally - a valuable resource. If lithium batteries become the new "oil", then lithium rich countries will become targets and oil countries will be ignored. But I think oil will be valuable for many decades to come. Oil use is projected to increase worldwide by every regulatory body. As long as oil is valuable, we'll fight over it. If lithium becomes…

I suppose asteroid mining would be a next step.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#93

Post by Yizahi »

thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

We can and should discuss reasons which led to current state of the world but there is nothing ambiguous about Iran, China and Russia being bad guys today. No need to put it in quotes. They are indiscriminately killing people in tens of thousands, annexing neighbor territories and in general maintain inhuman totalitarian regimes. And this happens today.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#94

Post by jessaustin »

asplake wrote: post #5
ossworkerrights wrote: post #2

Curious how world politics will change once electric vehicles become mainstream and there is little need for oil.

... and we’re dependent instead on rare earth elements and the like

The people of Bolivia have recently learned this to their great misfortune. The USA government hasn't even been shy about its support for that coup against a democratically elected leader who lifted so many out of poverty. The regime who took over celebrated the fact that they are white Christians and not brown natives.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#95

Post by Yizahi »

Youden wrote: post #87
thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

> Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. As a resident of Europe, I don't think that's accurate. I think there are negative views of these countries in the west but I think the negativity is _much_ stronger in the US than the rest of the west. Personally I find the US itself to be a much bigger problem than any of these countries and it seems…

Oh, right, thank you for opening our collective eyes. I didn't know that it is USA who invaded my country, annexed territories as big as whole Belgium and killed tens of thousands soldiers and civilians only in recent years. I was too negative to the poor innocent Russia while all the time I should have known that it was USA all along. The BIGGER problem indeed.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#96

Post by jessaustin »

missosoup wrote: post #23
GorgeIo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling..." Count how many times US has invaded other countries since 1949 and then come to your senses. I personally know a couple who came to my country from Ukraine because the Ukrainian fascists supported by the US were bombing their neighbourhood and killed their relatives. It was an orchestrated effort to spite Russia using Ukra…

This right here is a first-hand account of the '''good guy''' Russian angle. It nicely demonstrates the point I was making. Please don't engage with this individual in a flame war.

Why hasn't your knowledge of USA actions in Iran made you more suspicious of "official" media accounts of USA actions elsewhere?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#97

Post by Yizahi »

thdrdt wrote: post #57
ianai wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguments that start on false premises can lead anywhere and appear valid. It’s logically not constructive. I’m thinking of the logic table for the implication.

Can you explain what you are trying to say? Do you think the base of my argument is false? If so it would be helpful to point out why you think it is.

Iran, China and Russia are bad guys. Iran, China and Russia are worse that USA or any other country by whatever metric you would pick. Land area annexed in square kilometers or thousands of humans killed - pick any. Over any single point in time or any time period.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#98

Post by Retric »

Yizahi wrote: post #95
Youden wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. As a resident of Europe, I don't think that's accurate. I think there are negative views of these countries in the west but I think the negativity is _much_ stronger in the US than the rest of the west. Personally I find the US itself to be a much bigger problem than any of these countries and it seems…

Oh, right, thank you for opening our collective eyes. I didn't know that it is USA who invaded my country, annexed territories as big as whole Belgium and killed tens of thousands soldiers and civilians only in recent years. I was too negative to the poor innocent Russia while all the time I should have known that it was USA all along. The BIGGER problem indeed.

You might be directly impacted, but in terms of most countries invaded or people killed over the last say 100 years I think the US is rather ahead. Making them a bigger problem for the world even if Russia is a bigger problem for you.

Personally as an American I kind of like being part of the ‘evil’ empire. But, I can definitely understand why others might take issue with our actions.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#99

Post by surewhynat »

Const-me wrote: post #88
surewhynat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ... The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury…

> were violent and out of control Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense. > the country has been so much worse off economically and socially Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true: https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per…

Again, not a post about Ukraine, but, ok ...

>Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense.

Violent protest is not the answer, not when they had an election coming up very soon.

> Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true:

Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad in countries like Poland and Russia, among other countries in Western Europe. The common people do not have enough money to pay their gas bills, to pay for their heating in brutal winters. Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a look at this graph showing the value of their currency

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=UAH&to=USD&view=10Y

In terms of socially, absolutely it is worse. No one can afford to buy any import goods. There are dozens of reports of mass emigration, and the people that stay now almost all own guns in fear. You can't tell me that this is socially better than how Ukraine was before the revolution.

>Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines:

Ukraine was a developed nation. It had all the potential to be a manufacturing and tech powerhouse. It was a country filled with brilliant minds, engineers and hardworking people. Many of which have now fled the country. If you seriously want to compare Ukraine to India (where they don't have access to clean water or sanitation) and make that the bar for Ukraine then this discussion with you truly is fruitless.

>Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement” were Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil, there’re tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

I think it's pretty clear that the Donbass separatists are backed with Russian aid. No one is disputing that. But it is not Russian Military doing the fighting, which is a difference.

It's the people of the Donbass fighting for their own rights. The people on the front lines are people of the Donbass. USA sends military personnel to train the Ukrainian Army, and Russia probably trains people of the Donbass as well. At the end of the day it's the people of the Donbass on the front lines fighting for their rights.

This tit for tat argument needs to end. Seriously, people in Ukraine are so much worse off today than they were before the revolution.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#100

Post by tuesday20 »

thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

There is this tedX talk. I forgot the name. Someone made an app that connects people with polar opposite views. They meet in person and talk. Many times, they Gain respect for other person’s view point, and many people changed their opinion too.

We all live in our bubbles, me included. If we took 5 mins to look from opposite side, we’d have less conflicts.

The internet was supposed to bring people together. Instead we are all in some echo chamber or the other. Companies like Facebook profit handsomely from it too

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