The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures • Hacker News Board

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#91

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

squiggleblaz wrote: post #14

American state boundaries clearly do not reflect these national regions. Federal states have boundaries that either serve to unite separate territories or to administer a united territory. It has probably a source of strength in the US, that states are either much too small or contain multiple different areas in them, since it fosters a broader, national US identity rather than an identity as a New Netherlander or a…

on the one hand I think you are probably right in practical terms, but isn't this apologism for what is essentially gerrymandering at a large scale?

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#92

Post by thelittlenag » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #6

pjc50 wrote: post #5

It's interesting to see how canned phrases to represent certain concepts can become nonsensical when put together : > The Deep South was established by English slave lords from Barbados and was styled as a West Indies-style slave society, Woodard notes. It has a very rigid social structure and fights against government regulation that threatens individual liberty. Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, and So…

> The pro- slavery rigid society that somehow values individual liberty? Would anyone be able to explain how that works? It only valued individual liberties for free individuals, like slave owners. Slaves are by definition not free individuals, so the right to individual liberty by definition didn't apply to them. It's practically tautological if you substitute the word "liberty" with "freedom".

If you want a great explanation then I recommend reading this book review: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/27/book-review-albions-se...

The short story is that they valued the unlimited freedom for a single individual more than the general freedom of all individuals. In a sense, it's the finding and feeding utility monsters on the theory that that will maximize utility for society.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#93

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #70

Strangely, I'd say the CO frontrange is more Left Coast than West. It's a good attempt, but needs data backing. I remember another article that took daily commutes and then Voronoi Diagram'd them into a few 'states'. Can't find the link though.

to some extent, such a map would almost have to have fractal complexity. I can identify neighborhoods in my midatlantic city that fit into several different "nations".

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#94

Post by pgcj_poster » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #5

It's interesting to see how canned phrases to represent certain concepts can become nonsensical when put together : > The Deep South was established by English slave lords from Barbados and was styled as a West Indies-style slave society, Woodard notes. It has a very rigid social structure and fights against government regulation that threatens individual liberty. Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, and So…

When people with wealth and power talk about "liberty," they pretty much always mean their liberty to control others without the oversight of a central government. When the senate assassinated Caesar, they weren't trying to preserve freedom for the plebs—they were trying to preserve the republic that gave them, the privileged few, power over everyone else. Most of the Magna Carta was about protecting the barons from a king who might try to take away too much power. Present-day conservatives and right-libertarians will use the word "liberty" to mean "private property."

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#95

Post by danans » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #11

danans wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pro- slavery rigid society that somehow values individual liberty? Would anyone be able to explain how that works? It only valued individual liberties for free individuals, like slave owners. Slaves are by definition not free individuals, so the right to individual liberty by definition didn't apply to them. It's practically tautological if you substitute the word "liberty" with "freedom".

No, it's far from a tautology. A strong belief in individual liberty was a distinguishing characteristic of that society. And especially of that political society, which meant landowners. Having lots of slaves was another characteristic. The useful comparison is just up the coast, Massachusetts was almost the opposite, a theocracy of busybodies. Where a town council could re-arrange people's living arrangements if th…

The tautology is that non-free people (slaves) do not have freedom (AKA individual liberty).

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#96

Post by danans » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #22

danans wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pro- slavery rigid society that somehow values individual liberty? Would anyone be able to explain how that works? It only valued individual liberties for free individuals, like slave owners. Slaves are by definition not free individuals, so the right to individual liberty by definition didn't apply to them. It's practically tautological if you substitute the word "liberty" with "freedom".

The definition of freedom depends on what you value, and what you value varies with time and place. Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA? Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves? Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater, will we be free once we eliminate the Bill of Rights? Ki…

> Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA?

Slaves were definitionally not free under the law - their bodies were property of masters, just like farm animals were. If those slaves escaped their owners, they were legally allowed to be hunted down and returned.

That is a fundamental difference than the sweatshop, railway, or other workers, even though those workers were also abused by their employers. They still had the option to walk away, even if it meant accepting the destitution as a result. Lots of them did walk away and starve. Some toiled away as workers generation upon generation. A few went on to build great wealth and influence, as is evidenced by the rise of the early industrialist families of the United States.

> Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves?

Absolutely, and that doesn't excuse a system that lets free workers starve, just as a full stomach does not excuse the enslavement of humans.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#97

Post by jasonsamoa » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

squiggleblaz wrote: post #14

American state boundaries clearly do not reflect these national regions. Federal states have boundaries that either serve to unite separate territories or to administer a united territory. It has probably a source of strength in the US, that states are either much too small or contain multiple different areas in them, since it fosters a broader, national US identity rather than an identity as a New Netherlander or a…

I live in rural USA. State boundaries do bring our town together with the major city in our state, the problem is their voice drowns ours out. Wouldn’t more people be represented if we started splitting up states? Wouldn’t we all be better off from less monopolized regions?

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#98

Post by p1esk » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

CalChris wrote: post #57

Chicago is in Yankeedom? I don't understand that entire western half of Yankeedom, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin and Minnesota. SLO, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Orange County and San Diego are El Norte?

I lived in Santa Barbara for the last 15 years. Hispanic culture definitely dominates in the area.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#99

Post by iguy » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #60

pjc50 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even the poorest person was entitled to live his life as he saw fit on his land .. but by implication non-landowners were second class citizens, and nonwhite people were unpersons? > Social customs somewhat enforced neighborly behavior in place of regulation Including lynching.

Lynchings were post-war, mostly post reconstruction. I think second-class citizen is close enough to work.

Although IIRC they can be thought of as the end of a long tradition of mob justice being the system, or at least a large part of the system for keeping order. And directed against (supposed) criminals of all colors.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#100

Post by iguy » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

kiliantics wrote: post #84

xphilter wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is obviously only taking about white people there. You’d have a different culture representing black folks. (I’d love to see if white culture is even dominate there or only concentrated in those with power).

The whole article completely erases black people. The people descended from black slaves comprise a nation in themselves.

IIRC the argument in Albion's Seed (which is an earlier and more academic book which overlaps this one) is that many things we think of as particular to african americans are aspects of the surrounding culture that were dropped later by the upper class. It's been a while but the examples I remember are included many foods (and styles of preparation -- deep frying was only for the rich, fat to spare) and accents. But a few centuries later the rich kids started getting sent to university, and stopped speaking like that.