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It’s the End of California as We Know It

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#91

Post by gduffy »

pas wrote: post #80
gduffy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but your thinking here is actually a bigger part of the problem. There is nothing fundamentally unsustainable about suburbs, single family homes, low density, or cars. 50% of the USA is totally uninhabited, and it is possible today to build a totally off-grid and sustainable single family home / suburb in the majority of it. You can even capture carbon in concrete. Don't prescribe solutions just because y…

The incentive is already set, city limits are already set, eventually they will fill up and then people will be motivated to build up a bit. Sure, fundamentally nothing is sustainable because eventually the useful energy gradients where life can thrive will run out as the universe expands into a cold dark empty vacuum. But before that let's try to spend the already fixed tax income a bit more efficiently. Compact cit…

No the incentives are not there, not when you can vote yourself richer by freezing property taxes and preventing building up or out.

Citation needed on cities being fundamentally more efficient. A suburban home can be powered by pure solar, rainwater/groundwater can be captured and recycled locally, an electric car can carpool, and mass transit (sure, let's build more of that too) can easily reach out to the suburbs. You can even telecommute, and that sipping straw of electrons makes the public transit users look like energy-guzzling planet-killers in comparison (Ooh! We all love some tasty moral superiority!)

Even if that weren't the case, there is such a concept as efficient enough. At some level, sanity factors in, and trying to raise a family while dodging needles and poop in San Francisco is enough to make some people say "enough is enough."

I'm all for spending smarter and more compassionately. San Francisco spends $240 million per year on homeless programs, or $30k/yr per individual. And it doesn't even make a dent; the local living costs are so high that $30k evaporates in the blink of an eye.

We need policies/infrastructure that encourage building up AND out to relieve this pressure and better care for the less fortunate people ... while still allowing for sustainable urban and suburban lifestyles.

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#92

Post by vidanay »

BurningFrog wrote: post #31
Ididntdothis wrote: post #6

Somehow I feel this is not only a California problem but the whole US. The country seems to be incapable of or unwilling to address fundamental problems. Instead you are getting endless political fights while infrastructure is falling apart. The contrasts in Silicon Valley and LA are extreme. You have some of the richest people in the world living in beautiful mansions with cities around them full of homeless people,…

Nowhere is perfect, but I definitely think California is uniquely bad for the US. My pet theory is that small units govern themselves nest, and I'd support splitting California into as many smaller states as possible. Of course, a state where building a 4 story housing building takes on average math.inf will not get it together to dissolve itself in anyone's lifetime. So I guess things will just continue on this trac…

Illinois is the poster child for taking this too far.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/too-much-government-i...

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#93

Post by taborj »

tehlike wrote: post #11

Sometimes i wonder... Washington doesnt have the income tax, but it feels much better there. Am i imagining this?

Some would say the problem is Californians fleeing the state, settling elsewhere...then creating the same problems that created California.

It's not enough to physically move, there needs to be a change in mindset that goes along with it. Generally speaking, if you've moved somewhere because it's better, then whatever they're doing there is working. Could it be better? Sure, but it could also be a whole lot worse.

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#94

Post by BurningFrog »

masonic wrote: post #81
BurningFrog wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere is perfect, but I definitely think California is uniquely bad for the US. My pet theory is that small units govern themselves nest, and I'd support splitting California into as many smaller states as possible. Of course, a state where building a 4 story housing building takes on average math.inf will not get it together to dissolve itself in anyone's lifetime. So I guess things will just continue on this trac…

I'd support splitting California into as many smaller states as possible You don't cure a cancer by just cutting it into smaller pieces. Among other things, that would just replicate CA's legacy of inept representation in the Senate many times over.

I don't think "cancer" is the right metaphor.

I think of government as something very complicated. So the metaphor to me is "you solve a complicated problem by dividing it into smaller simpler problems".

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#95

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

roenxi wrote: post #49
Ididntdothis wrote: post #6

Somehow I feel this is not only a California problem but the whole US. The country seems to be incapable of or unwilling to address fundamental problems. Instead you are getting endless political fights while infrastructure is falling apart. The contrasts in Silicon Valley and LA are extreme. You have some of the richest people in the world living in beautiful mansions with cities around them full of homeless people,…

What fundamental problems? Compared to the majority of human civilisations and most of human history the US is a utopia. It isn't perfect, but the people claiming they are 'trying to to fix fundamental problems' are potentially more of a threat than the problems themselves. But predicting the end of times is fun and I'll throw in a take. The US as a nation is fabulously wealthy. That obscures the importance of wealth…

Bravo. Sadly this is the type of sober-minded take that will get you downvoted to oblivion. The US is fabulously wealthy, and by an overwhelming number of metrics, people are (across socio-economic dimensions) living better lives than their predecessors. The rhetoric passed around today frames life as intolerable, as though the world isn't becoming steadily safer and materially better.

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#97

Post by baggy_trough »

cagenut wrote: post #45
baggy_trough wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe that famine is going to affect the middle of the United States in, say, the next 100 years?

In a 2C world its very unlikely, in a 4C world its highly likely. So the question is, and always has been, where will we stop? The BAU trendline is ~4.5C by 2100. At which point everything from philidelphia to oakland will be desert.

Even if that happened, I'm not connecting the dots on how it leads to a famine. Do we not have the ability to move food any longer, or something?

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#98

Post by tehlike »

shsjxjbsbs wrote: post #78
tehlike wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me california has a bunch of problems that seem to be growing over time. Makes you wonder where that tax money is going. I am all for paying more taxes for the common benefit, on things that makes sense, but homeless problem, fire problem, infrastructure all seem utter mess...

The big ticket items are Medicaid and teachers.

you mean pensions?

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#99

Post by cagenut »

baggy_trough wrote: post #97
cagenut wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a 2C world its very unlikely, in a 4C world its highly likely. So the question is, and always has been, where will we stop? The BAU trendline is ~4.5C by 2100. At which point everything from philidelphia to oakland will be desert.

Even if that happened, I'm not connecting the dots on how it leads to a famine. Do we not have the ability to move food any longer, or something?

empirically speaking no, we (mankind) have never moved half or more of our agriculture hundreds of miles in a generation or two without large number of people not making the transition.

maybe we pull it off this time? seems like a flat out evil experiment to run.

imagine your company running its failover plan to its DR site on short notice. what are the odds of it being flawless?

ok now imagine moving half the farming that feeds everyone you know and love from the midwest to manitoba and ontario. if your reaction to that isn't stark terror at the risk to human life, well then you've played waaaaaaaaaay too many civilization games and your brain has broken into believing this is just a question of right-clicking on the better squares.

Re: It’s the End of California as We Know It

#100

Post by baggy_trough »

cagenut wrote: post #99
baggy_trough wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that happened, I'm not connecting the dots on how it leads to a famine. Do we not have the ability to move food any longer, or something?

empirically speaking no, we (mankind) have never moved half or more of our agriculture hundreds of miles in a generation or two without large number of people not making the transition. maybe we pull it off this time? seems like a flat out evil experiment to run. imagine your company running its failover plan to its DR site on short notice. what are the odds of it being flawless? ok now imagine moving half the farmin…

You may not be appreciating how adaptable the economy is.
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