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Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

theamericanconservative.com

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Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#91
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this can be very confusing, unless you come from a self-centered elite worldview where (a) and (b) aren't highly differentiated. I'm a white dude from a family that was totally fine financially (though more due to good money management than sky-high income) so I can't and wouldn't claim any disadvantage on those fronts, obviously, but socially there's just so much my upbringing didn't prepare me for in the worl…

>It would never, ever have occurred to me to attend office hours just to get to know my professors. Woulda seemed pretty dickish, actually. But it's normal and expected and confers all kinds of advantages. Go figure. I wouldn't necessarily say that people go to office hours just to get to know their professors, that would be presumptuous. What people do do is go when they are temporarily stuck on a concept, or want t…

> I wouldn't necessarily say that people go to office hours just to get to know their professors, that would be presumptuous.

This. I was a teacher's assistant in college for 3 years for the introductory programming courses, and most years there were only a handful of students who bothered coming to my office hours.

One semester in particular stands out, one student came in every single week, not directly for help, but because class was during her part-time job and as a single mother she had no free time at home. It was the only chance she had to get an overview of the lesson (she had a good mind for the topic and didn't need much instruction from me) and complete the assignments each week. Just being in the same room like that for extended periods, conversations tend to wander - or outside life intrudes through phone calls - hence how I know what her situation was.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#92

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

>The whole concept of "discussing your grade" is another overlap. People from a certain strata do this constantly and it's a perfect example of something bluring (a) and (b). I've seen this happen with working class people in high universities. It's not a class issue, you can learn it from others.

I think I started my post with "some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups," which is to say that the situation is not one 100% bounded by class, race, or other common labels, though there are probably correlations of various strengths with many labels.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#93
post #20
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be extreme affirmative action, and would undermine myriad efficiencies built into the higher educational system. Schools like Michigan would have some students who are totally illiterate with SAT scores hovering around 800, and some students who've already done upper-division math courses in high school. Intelligent people could no longer be grouped together to help drive each other, and schools like Harva…

Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget. Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more , ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you app…

This feels like centralization that will devolve into propagandist re-education, removing parents like agency in raising their children as they see fit. Sorry but that is unacceptable in a free country.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#94
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ban private after-schools too? For example, my children attend Russian School of Math, which has branches around the country, especially in the Northeast. Chinese parents have created supplemental schools where Chinese language, English, art, contest math and other things are taught. If you ban physical after-schools, do you then ban online classes such as the math classes offered by the Art of Problem Solv…

No, just the ones that serve as alternatives to the public ones. Obviously after-school programs, while potentially leading to some of the same problems, would be a much more complicated question.

Why wouldn’t we want alternatives? Why grant a monopoly on education where we don’t need one? There is no evidence this maximizes societal outcomes.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#95
post #72

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

This is just... not accurate. The closest I can agree with your description is that (a) getting help on specific questions about the class, is not highly differentiated from (b') having conversations about the class (or about your studies) with the professor. But (b') talking about school and (b) schmoozing are two different things. Speaking from personal experience (I'm an academic in my late 20s / early 30s, and I…

> "Working on math problems with students, giving study advice, and sometimes talking about my students' academic plans (e.g. recommending other classes for them to take, or telling them about resources they can access on campus)"

By your own words basically it's potentially kind of a social group where a subset of students get extra instruction, advice, and help, while maybe making a personal connection with their professor. I'm not saying that's evil. But it's definitely a resource that some are better able to leverage than others for numerous reasons. (Which also isn't inherently a bad thing, either.)

So while going to see your prof and asking for help is reasonable, it's not that simple, and viewing that as the extent of what office hours are is very reductive.

During my own time in college many profs emphasized that they absolutely don't give extensions, that you're all adults now, take responsibility, etc. I even had one math professor give the entire class a lecture (I quote) about "In computing we have RtFM, while here we have RtFT: Read the Fucking Textbook," because some the questions he was getting during class were a bit rough. And of course the textbook students were supposed to "RtFT" was also a bit rough and written by his own department so they could make money of forcing students to buy it. I think pretty much everyone in the class was terrified of going to his office hours after that lecture.

This isn't to say there aren't plenty of very decent professors. I once accidentally swapped two things on my calendar and missed a final. It was terrifying. I thought it was going to be a life altering disaster, but the prof let me take the final in their office. But up until the moment they did that and said it was okay, I pretty much thought the rest of my life was going to be severely complicated by a calendar screw-up.

But everything is really just a morass of YMMV, cross your fingers.

Maybe more to the point, I tend to remember an open door policy of some sort always being much more comfortable than office hours. It didn't feel like you'd have to reschedule work hours to make office hours, and it didn't feel like you were reaching by asking a prof to meet outside of office hours because you had another class during that time, etc.

And yes, many professors are happy to do things in a more ad-hoc way. It's just that a system that was supposed to be a simple way to make it easy to get help really isn't as straightforward or as helpful as it looks at first glance, and many students have a great deal of uncertainty about professor interactions since they can be extremely variable.

But no matter how things are done, there's a big ambiguity zone.

Is spending 40 minutes with your prof discussing a potential paper topic fine, or is it taking away from another student who is struggling with with something more foundational? What would happen if every student in the whole class tried to go to the same office hours for that? Are office hours only a thing that even "works" at all because only a select minority of students feel casual enough about them to take advantage? If a student thinks it's not right to get special help on something that's only ambiguously a problem are they at fault or not? If you want to learn more about something that was only mentioned in passing and not course related is going for that okay or not? If I'm at office hours trying to get help on a problem and the person in front of me is just arguing about why they should get 5 more points on the last exam is that alright?

I mean it's not like I hate office hours. I just think there one of many parts of college with good intentions that are in practice vastly more complicated, messy, and weird unless you come in very capable of being ...breezy.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#96
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most fair solution would probably look a lot like what Harry Potter got at Hogwarts. A student dorm (housing), medical care, and proper meals; all provided by the educational institution (which as a whole was in competition with other institutions). In the HP universe that happened to be paid for by the family estate; in our own reality properly caring for and ensuring that everyone is raised to be an outstanding…

But (as I attempted to convey above) the Ivies already provide housing/food/health care for free for students that qualify for the need (if the family income is under a reasonable threshold). The problem is that if you are poor, your statistically inferior K12 education puts you at a disadvantage when applying to college. We need a version of your Harry Potter solution to be for the actual Harry Potter age group (K12…

It's late for clarifying, but I was speaking much more broadly; as in through the entire life of a child.

Though thinking of it, a new new deal would also help the parents, and a structured environment that has 'secondary parents' to assist with raising a child to common standards for society would be good for everyone. That'd be more like schooling / social support without bounds, possibly a good use of human resources when automation finally eliminates the drudgery jobs.

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