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On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

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Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#91

Post by progfix »

happytoexplain wrote: post #78
progfix wrote: post #28

I use whatever pronoun I see fit and if I offend someone by using the wrong pronoun I will apology to that person and move on.

"Whatever I see fit" typically is a declaration of defiance and rejection, rather than a simple "I'll try my best". If that characterization is accurate, it implies that your theoretical apology would be insincere. If so, why offer it?

With "I see fit" I meant to use one that I assume is correct in the spirit of "I'll try my best".

English is my second language and I should have worded my comment differently.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#92

Post by repolfx »

Kye wrote: post #69
hirundo wrote: post #67

"Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the individual." Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think the…

>> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct." This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helic…

Honestly, if I didn't read Hacker News and get exposed to this stuff I'd assume someone asking to be called "xe" was obvious trolling. I mean, who spends time inventing a non-existent gender with a word that is equally non-existent and then flames everyone for not using it? That sort of thing is classic trolling behaviour.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#93

Post by Kye »

repolfx wrote: post #92
Kye wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct." This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helic…

Honestly, if I didn't read Hacker News and get exposed to this stuff I'd assume someone asking to be called "xe" was obvious trolling. I mean, who spends time inventing a non-existent gender with a word that is equally non-existent and then flames everyone for not using it? That sort of thing is classic trolling behaviour.

I've met lots of people who use these pronouns and I've never seen one go on the attack because someone got it wrong unless said person was an asshole. You should eject xem from your life. That kind of behavior is toxic and contrary to helping people learn.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#94

Post by Kye »

drstewart wrote: post #80
Kye wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the post otherwise good? If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. Search engines are better at surfacing explanations for them these days. In practice, you won't encounter them often, and it should be obvious if they're a troll. Those should be reported and otherwise ignored. You can worry yourself sick with these hypotheticals. You are more dynamic than you give yourself credit for.

>If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. No, I don't think I will waste my time Googling every little thing to avoid manufactured outrage.

Do you typically refuse to learn new things because some people who know those things are toxic assholes? I never would have learned anything about computers, writing, or music with a policy like that.

You do you. I'll be over here learning new ways to expand on the human experience.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#95

Post by frittig »

One issue that a lot of trans supporters don't realize is that similarly to how trans people could be offended when they are referred to by a gender not of their choice, so to could some speakers be offended if they are forced to refer to a person as a gender not of their (the speaker) choice.

This may be easier to understand by using a comparison. When I talk about the Muslim prophet I say Muhammad. However, many Muslims would say Muhammad pbuh (peace be upon him). This isn't that problematic, but let's say they the term was Muhammad ttp (the true prophet). Now I as a non Muslim believer would never use ttp because that would be insulting for whoever I believe in. If SE required that whenever I mention Muhammad that I append ttp, I would refuse as it would be extremely offensive to me.

Similarly by referring to a person with XX chromosomes as she, is offensive to people who believe that genders cannot change. A reasonable compromise would be to let whoever is righting chose what they want, or even allow gender neutral pronouns. But what SE chose to do was to say that people who believe that XY is a guy are wrong and deserve no respect for their beliefs.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#96

Post by frittig »

tzs wrote: post #71

I could get behind a real fix to English pronouns that takes gender completely out of it and fixes the problem of ambiguity when you have more than one pronoun in a sentence. My proposal would be: 1. "he" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the first person in the sentence. 2. "she" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the second person in the sentence. You can think if it as standing for "second he"…

that's actually really interesting, I never thought of that. do you know if any languages have something like that?

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#97

Post by pandaman »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #90
pandaman wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what confuses me the most: the pronouns usually listed by people who insist on listing them are third person pronouns. How do you use a third person pronoun when talking to somebody to reference the very same person? Or are "he/him/his" etc actually second person pronouns? I.e. if somebody listed pronouns as "they/them/their" should I say "Hi, how are they doing? Can I offer them something to drink?". I hope…

It makes no sense to me either. When you reply to a person, you never use a pronoun apart from 'you' when you refer to them.

It might make some sense in a multi-party discussion, I think. E.g. "When Soandso implied X he or she made a mistake by assuming Y". In an interview though? Unless it's from the Silence of the Lambs, I don't see where third person pronouns could ever happen.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#98

Post by jhanschoo »

bsza wrote: post #86
urthen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.

Singular they always gets me confused about how many people we're talking about. As a non-native speaker, I wouldn't call this solution perfectly good.

On the other hand, I think it's an advantage that plurality is ambiguous. You can always make the plurality certain with additional words and when it is necessarily, and e.g. "you" is already a pronoun that has ambiguous plurality.

I assume that your native tongue is one where pronouns necessarily indicate plurality, and also that your English education almost always uses they to indicate the plural. But there are languages that have independent subject pronouns that do not mark for plurality; they indicate plurality when necessary with other words.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#99

Post by luord »

I've been answering questions in Stack Overflow for over two years and I don't remember referring to anyone by anything other than the second person; I never saw SO as a platform that lended itself to talk about anyone in the third person.

Regardless, this policy means that I'll be contributing even less frequently than I already do and, if/when that happens, I'll just keep using the second person.

If I somehow slip, use the third person and someone ends up saying anything about "misgendering", I'll just delete the answer/comment and spend my time better doing something else.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#100

Post by repolfx »

Kye wrote: post #93
repolfx wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if I didn't read Hacker News and get exposed to this stuff I'd assume someone asking to be called "xe" was obvious trolling. I mean, who spends time inventing a non-existent gender with a word that is equally non-existent and then flames everyone for not using it? That sort of thing is classic trolling behaviour.

I've met lots of people who use these pronouns and I've never seen one go on the attack because someone got it wrong unless said person was an asshole. You should eject xem from your life. That kind of behavior is toxic and contrary to helping people learn.

This is clearly something very culturally local. I've never met anyone who uses such pronouns. I'm not even sure I've ever met a transgender person at all. If I did they didn't mention it and it wasn't noticeable.
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