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Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

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Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#91

Post by contingencies »

hevi_jos wrote: post #27
hevi_jos wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone does not need a printer. A creative professional like an architect, engineer, electrician, decorator, wood worker, they absolutely need it. Mass marketed are always cheaper and most of the time better. True. So why creative professionals need it? Because not everything they need its mass marketted. In fact, one of the best uses is joining two mass marketted things together to create a system. 3d printing is…

PS: Another very important thing is that when you talk with an artisan to make your pieces it is craftsmanship. You need to explain to the artisan what you need done. This person has to understand you. This take time and money. The effort I make explaining what I need to an artisan is completely lost if I change the artisan. With a 3D printer, you create a design that is a product in itself. It can be repeated ad inf…

There is an ancient and effective standard interface for artisans. It's called technical drawing. If you spend the time defining your part in those terms you can scale manufacturing and have redundant suppliers. Further, these days to many fabricators you can send 3D models instead of the drawings. For product design exceeding tiny quantities, such an approach offers benefits over non-scalable self-fabrication with unprofessional tooling that will ultimately limit your access to a broader range of fabrication processes and materials. I've banned 3D printers in our office for that reason. We occasionally 3D print outside, but more often these days just get metal CNC'd.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#92

Post by jbay808 »

jdietrich wrote: post #78
ALittleLight wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes, China may be a brutal, authoritarian, oppressive regime currently trying to censor discussion of their occupation of Hong Kong - but at least they provide cheap manual labor due to lax labor laws, a disregard for the environment, and the general poverty of their people." Apple products could be built anywhere.

Chinese labour isn't particularly cheap by global standards, especially in Shenzhen and the wider PRD region. We outsource to China because they're damned good at manufacturing. Apple products could be built anywhere, but only because Apple have absolutely vast economies of scale. Most consumer electronics products couldn't be built anywhere else at a viable price, not because of labour costs but because of infrastru…

> We outsource to China because they're damned good at manufacturing.

I suspect it's the other way around. The supply chains, manufacturing expertise, automation, and skilled labour that are now China's main advantages were created through decades of investment that began with a search for cheap labour, and gradually crept up the value chain.

30 years ago in 1989, you would have said that you outsource manufacturing to Japan because they're "damned good at it". Only the very cheapest products would have been outsourced to China at that time. The skilled labour and supply chains weren't there.

30 years before that, in 1959, you would have looked to the US for a force that was "damned good at manufacturing". Only the cheapest products would have been outsourced to Japan.

Basically you start setting up factories making cheap stuff. Then as you gain skill and expertise, your quality gets better faster than your prices go up. The expensive countries see how much they can save by outsourcing more and more of their supply chain to you, and in the process their domestic supply chain dwindles and their skilled labour retires or gets laid off.

Eventually, you're the only choice for anything, until someone cheaper shows up to undercut you on the cheaper stuff...

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#93

Post by cthalupa »

sitkack wrote: post #67

So much sinophobia and racism in this thread. Folks, remember that your exquisitely built Apple products are all made in China.

The vast majority of housefires caused by 3D printers are caused by the budget printers coming out of China. It's a real issue, and it's cost people their homes and their possessions. The Anet A8 in particular has been very bad about this. The Creality CR-10 had some issues as well. The Ender 3 that several people have referred to in here has some additional protections, especially with the newest firmware, but I would be hesitant with the track record and huge lag time on putting thermal runway protection into their devices.

I don't think anyone is saying that China is incapable of creating high quality products - they very obviously are. But being capable of doing something doesn't mean that that is the product strategy being employed, or that if it is being employed, that it's the only or most popular one.

I would absolutely trust a 3D printer manufactured in China from a company that used quality component and put thought into safety from the start. I've put my money where my mouth is, and own a Milkshake3D (granted, it is an SLA printer and not FDM.) But I wouldn't purchase one of the budget FDM printers manufactured in China at this point in time. If Creality's printers look to hold up well with the new protections, I might reconsider them in the future.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#94

Post by cthalupa »

tpmx wrote: post #42
magicalhippo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having just built a MK3S and not having done much printing before, it was nice to see just what kind of things you could build. The level of detail, how to design the parts that need to be somewhat strong etc. Another point is that it allows you to print spare parts for your own or a friends printer if something breaks, or print upgraded parts if they tweak the design.

The could have a) injection moulded the parts b) provided all of the parts as 3d models for for spares though. There's something else all you guys are being weird about. Is it the IKEA effect ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect ) in action? I was interested in upgrading my 3d printer to a prusa model.. but... the having the parts being built to subpar-precision using a FDM printer in a Czech 3d printer cluste…

>having the parts being built to subpar-precision using a FDM printer in a Czech 3d printer cluster didn't seem super exciting in itself...

None of the parts need to have tighter tolerances or higher precision for the Prusa printers to work well.

The fact of the matter is, print quality on basically any FDM printer out there can be dialed in and be really damn close. Even on the cheaper ones. The differences are more on print speed, bed leveling, crash/out of filament/etc. detection, recovery after power loss, etc. And none of those are affected by whether or not the plastic was injection molded or 3D printed.

In exchange, they gain a lot of dogfooding on their designs, including through physical and software upgrades, etc. They get to do a lot of testing on how well things like their powder coated sheets hold up to extended workhorse levels of printing.

And yes, some of it is a bit of marketing - Our printers are so good, we print them on themselves! - and the adhering to the whole RepRap movement, but there are a lot of benefits that they clearly believe outweigh the downsides.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#95

Post by cthalupa »

The mini is neat, but I'm more excited about the CoreXY based XL.

I love my MK3, which I've upgraded to the MMU MK3S, but have had a bunch of projects where a larger printing area would be desirable (I print a lot of board game organizers, to reduce shelf space usage, speed up set up/tear down, improve playing ability during the game, etc., so usually this means 3-6 distinct sets of prints on the MK3S).

I have a good bit of experience on the Voron 2, and was thinking I was going to build a 2.1 - the CoreXY design also has the benefit of being able to print faster without quality loss, as well as being very amenable to designs that have built in enclosures, which is a godsend for printing ABS (and building exhausts to get the fumes out of the house), but with how great my experience with my current Prusa has been, I'm going to wait and see how it shapes up. It'd also save a ton of work, as the Voron is an entirely DIY design.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#96

Post by jdietrich »

jbay808 wrote: post #92
jdietrich wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese labour isn't particularly cheap by global standards, especially in Shenzhen and the wider PRD region. We outsource to China because they're damned good at manufacturing. Apple products could be built anywhere, but only because Apple have absolutely vast economies of scale. Most consumer electronics products couldn't be built anywhere else at a viable price, not because of labour costs but because of infrastru…

> We outsource to China because they're damned good at manufacturing. I suspect it's the other way around. The supply chains, manufacturing expertise, automation, and skilled labour that are now China's main advantages were created through decades of investment that began with a search for cheap labour, and gradually crept up the value chain. 30 years ago in 1989, you would have said that you outsource manufacturing…

>I suspect it's the other way around. The supply chains, manufacturing expertise, automation, and skilled labour that are now China's main advantages were created through decades of investment that began with a search for cheap labour, and gradually crept up the value chain.

Of course China started at the bottom of the value chain and moved up. The point I'm making is that China is no longer just a mass of undifferentiated cheap labour and low legal standards - it's a serious industrial power with a lot of unique strengths. A lot of low-skill, low-cost manufacturing has already left China in search of cheaper labour, but China is likely to remain a powerhouse in many industries for the foreseeable future. They're heavily investing in automation and are well-equipped to remain competitive despite rising labour costs.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#97

Post by jdietrich »

taneq wrote: post #79
sitkack wrote: post #67

So much sinophobia and racism in this thread. Folks, remember that your exquisitely built Apple products are all made in China.

It’s not phobic or racist to point out genuine issues with products designed and manufactured in a particular country.

If Uganda or Bangladesh or Libya could make and export vast quantities of cheap consumer electronics, they would. China exports lots of cheap crappy 3d printers because they're the only country on earth with the industrial capacity to make lots of cheap crappy 3d printers. Most of the expensive non-crappy 3d printers are still made in China, because China is really good at making stuff.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#98

Post by jbay808 »

jdietrich wrote: post #96
jbay808 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We outsource to China because they're damned good at manufacturing. I suspect it's the other way around. The supply chains, manufacturing expertise, automation, and skilled labour that are now China's main advantages were created through decades of investment that began with a search for cheap labour, and gradually crept up the value chain. 30 years ago in 1989, you would have said that you outsource manufacturing…

>I suspect it's the other way around. The supply chains, manufacturing expertise, automation, and skilled labour that are now China's main advantages were created through decades of investment that began with a search for cheap labour, and gradually crept up the value chain. Of course China started at the bottom of the value chain and moved up. The point I'm making is that China is no longer just a mass of undifferen…

I didn't mean to come across as disagreeing with you about China's strengths. I fully agree with what you have written -- but it's also exactly the same thing we could have said about Japan in 1989 or the USA in 1959. Right down to investing heavily in automation and being well equipped to remain competitive despite rising labour costs.

And Japan still makes a lot of top-notch stuff, and even the USA does too, although neither are the obvious go-to places to get something made, which they used to be.

The same thing may well happen with China; their integrated domestic supply chain and expertise are huge advantages, but the same used to be the case in the USA and that didn't stop companies from looking elsewhere.

At the same time, Chinese companies have noticed that they don't have to be anybody's contract manufacturers; they can design products faster and better than engineers in the USA who have never visited a production floor in their lives. And so it goes...

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#99

Post by taneq »

jdietrich wrote: post #97
taneq wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not phobic or racist to point out genuine issues with products designed and manufactured in a particular country.

If Uganda or Bangladesh or Libya could make and export vast quantities of cheap consumer electronics, they would. China exports lots of cheap crappy 3d printers because they're the only country on earth with the industrial capacity to make lots of cheap crappy 3d printers. Most of the expensive non-crappy 3d printers are still made in China, because China is really good at making stuff.

Oh, I agree - I don't think Chinese companies make cheap crappy things because they can't make good things. There are clearly many world-class Chinese companies (DJI springs to mind, their stuff is unmatched.)

From what I can see, the issue seems to be lack of trust between companies. If you never know whether you're going to get what you paid for, then the only way to distinguish between suppliers is price and it becomes a race to the bottom.

This lines up with the fact that most high end Chinese companies seem to be vertically integrated monoliths, which own the entire supply chain and so can control quality.

Re: Prusa MINI: Smart and compact 3D printer

#100

Post by jrockway »

kbob wrote: post #57
tpmx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but they've kept doing it for many years now. At some point it shifts into some kind of "religion". Or, judging from your response, it's a part of their brand?

Keep in mind that the printers are getting regular upgrade cycles. A 2019 i3 MK3S is nothing like a 2015 i3. Firmware upgrades are released every couple of months. So continuous testing is still valuable.

I was going to cite this example. I think recent MK3Ss have different fan shrouds than the first batch of MK3Ss, because the community found a better design. All Prusa had to do to upgrade new customers was to send their print farm a different file; total cost $0. Meanwhile, customers with the original design could download a file and print it, getting a factory-quality part for (essentially) free.

Managing a printer farm sounds like a lot work, but they did do that work and can reap the benefit that prototyping and manufacturing are the exact same process. It's like saying "why does Google have all these servers when they could just buy them from AWS?" Well, they got good at building datacenters before you could just rent a datacenter from Amazon. If you're good at something, keep it up!

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