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Software engineers hard to find

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Re: Software engineers hard to find

#91

Post by pedanticfreak »

thomas11 wrote: post #44
nostrademons wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You generally can't train attitude. Many of those candidates who don't have the skills or passion lack it because there are other things in their life that they value more, like family.

In almost no other field of work is it expected that you have a passion for your work greater than that for your family. Hackers repeating this passion mantra make life harder for all of us, because it raises employers expectations, instead of making them provide training or simply time to study. Good for you if you have that passion - I do - but why not enjoy it in private?

On the flip side, in no other field can someone leave the university and expect a good job regardless of interest or talent in said field.

Do you know what happens to art or English majors that aren't desperately passionate about their trade? They are shift managers working retail.

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#92

Post by zachbeane »

mahmud wrote: post #68
rbanffy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we, engineers, can help HR folks ask important questions that would prevent bad candidates from wasting our time as well as thinking up crazy ideas that could help lure good candidates. Yesterday, I suggested going EA-style and hand out laptop stickers on an upcoming hacker-ish convention with things like ''.join([chr(c) for c in [119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103]]) and (dolist (x (map…

(format t "~{~c~}" (mapcar #'code-char '(119 101 39 114 101 32 104 105 114 105 110 103))) => we're hiring FORMAT is a turing complete DSL for formatting output; here you see ~{~} iteration directive.

C'mon:

    (map 'string #'code-char '(119 ...))

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#93

Post by eru »

mahmud wrote: post #56
maxawaytoolong wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate... I am not a moron, and I used to help hire at various startups. We'd always get one or two offers "we couldn't refuse" from engineers of our competitors. Whenever we gave them a second of interest, they'd waste hours and even days of our time. What they were really interested in was not engineering, but escaping their current workplace hell and wedging themselves into our startup as so…

Very interesting take. I think I might have been creepy, not in the sense that I was clingy or nagging (I have no interest in joining another marketing shit-hole anyway) but because I might have come off as a know it all. The whole time I was looking at their sites I was making mental notes of what is broken, and tallying up all the ways they're doing something wrong. I think some of that contempt must have come out…

Perhaps if you had made notes on paper instead of your mind, and sent them a random sample plus an offer for the rest, they would have reacted differently? (Though not all people react well to criticism.)

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#94

Post by eru »

bugsy wrote: post #38
rdtsc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The job of a good HR department is to at least be able to screen the really dumb ones and pass the rest up the technical chain for evaluation. The good engineers might be burned out but if they know that not spending time interviewing and reviewing resumes will result in having to deal with a dud that gets hired, having to babysit them, teach them the basics of programming and watch them slowly destroy the code base,…

If anyone in HR had the capabilities to tell the difference between a qualified candidate and one who is lying, then that HR person is also qualified to transfer to engineering and start coding.

Not all people who can code, enjoy doing it as part of their main job.

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#95

Post by chromatic »

Natsu wrote: post #58
rbanffy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we, engineers, can help HR folks ask important questions that would prevent bad candidates from wasting our time as well as thinking up crazy ideas that could help lure good candidates. Yesterday, I suggested going EA-style and hand out laptop stickers on an upcoming hacker-ish convention with things like ''.join([chr(c) for c in [119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103]]) and (dolist (x (map…

Seems like we're seeing less of perl -e "@w = (119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103); foreach $c (@w) {print chr $c;}" these days.

Hopefully that's because a good Perl hacker would write:

    perl -E 'say map { chr } 119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103'

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#96

Post by nostrademons »

khafra wrote: post #81
ig1 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors. Lawyers. Bankers. Military forces. Plenty of occupations require you to put your occupation ahead of your personal life.

When I think "passionate intensity about the work," several professions come to mind. "Banker" is not among them.

Yeah, if you think programmers have a tough time with work/life balance, you don't know many people in the financial field. I-bankers are expected to work 14 hour days, 7 days a week, and basically have no life outside of work. This is where the "hookers and blow" reputation comes from: they have plenty of money, but no time for fulfilling relationships or hobbies.

Things are better for hedge fund managers (many of the ones I know work pretty standard 50ish hour weeks), but most of the good ones find it hard to shut off their financial brains. The foreword to Peter Lynch's books explain that he left investing because he was basically missing his kids' childhood, and at some point, some things are more important than making your next million.

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#97

Post by thomas11 »

nostrademons wrote: post #96
khafra wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think "passionate intensity about the work," several professions come to mind. "Banker" is not among them.

Yeah, if you think programmers have a tough time with work/life balance, you don't know many people in the financial field. I-bankers are expected to work 14 hour days, 7 days a week, and basically have no life outside of work. This is where the "hookers and blow" reputation comes from: they have plenty of money, but no time for fulfilling relationships or hobbies. Things are better for hedge fund managers (many of t…

Fine, but investment bankers are still a small minority in finance. I lack the proper English terms for the different banking job descriptions, but bankers dealing with customers personally (loan approval etc., which for commercial clients can be pretty big), internal auditing, etc. have standard hours and, if they are doing a good job, a good career.

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#98

Post by Natsu »

chromatic wrote: post #95
Natsu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like we're seeing less of perl -e "@w = (119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103); foreach $c (@w) {print chr $c;}" these days.

Hopefully that's because a good Perl hacker would write: perl -E 'say map { chr } 119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103'

perl -e "print map {chr} 119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103;"

is the best my version can do. I still need to read more of that book of yours. And update my install: neither say nor -E exist.

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#99

Post by bugsy »

gaius wrote: post #89
khafra wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think "passionate intensity about the work," several professions come to mind. "Banker" is not among them.

Then you don't know many investment bankers.

Oh, you mean psychopathic thieves! You are right, they are passionate about their work.

As far as bankers go, they work from 10 to 4 M-Th and from 10 to 6 on Fridays.

Re: Software engineers hard to find

#100

Post by chromatic »

Natsu wrote: post #98
chromatic wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully that's because a good Perl hacker would write: perl -E 'say map { chr } 119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103'

perl -e "print map {chr} 119, 101, 39, 114, 101, 32, 104, 105, 114, 105, 110, 103;" is the best my version can do. I still need to read more of that book of yours. And update my install: neither say nor -E exist.

You need at least Perl 5.10 (and 5.12.3 should be out shortly). If your OS vendor has an older version installed, see App::perlbrew to install your own updated version independent of the system Perl 5.
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