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The growing science of memory manipulation

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#91

Post by lostjohnny »

Kbelicius wrote: post #88
lostjohnny wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! The right to be forgotten (or to oblivion) is just the right to have your private informations deleted and the guarantee that what you delete online is really deleted and nobody can recover it. It's not the right to be removed from other's people memory.

> This! >The right to be forgotten (or to oblivion) is just the right to have your private informations deleted and the guarantee that what you delete online is really deleted and nobody can recover it. You say "this" and then written something completely different to what I wrote. As I said, AFAIK the right to be forgotten doesn't give you the right to delete any information. It just gives you the right to remove so…

> As I said, AFAIK the right to be forgotten doesn't give you the right to delete any information. It just gives you the right to remove some information from appearing in search engines.

Sorry, probably lost in translation.

I never said you have the right to delete any information, just you private informations and any data you own and you ask the controller to delete.

I don't know if you are aware that in EU for EU citizens we have the GDPR legislation.

Let's cite the law, Article 17, GDPR legislation

> Art. 17 GDPR

> Right to erasure (‘right to be forgotten’)

> The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller the erasure

> of personal data concerning him or her without undue delay and the controller

> shall have the obligation to erase personal data without undue delay

https://gdpr.eu/article-17-right-to-be-forgotten/

In particular, the controller has the right to retain your personal data (including the data you posted publicly) until you consent to it, if you revoke the consent, you can ask to stop the processing (art. 18) and delete everything they have about you.

If you comment on a social network, for example, that comment identifies you, because it is linked to your username, it has metadata attached to it, it can be used to track you, it is considered personal data, you can ask for removal.

Unless there is a (very) valid reason, the controller has to comply and delete every copy of the data, including backups (and soft deleted data that's still there).

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#92

Post by im3w1l »

The description of what they have accomplished sounds misleading.

They stimulated an olfactory sensory nerve. That causes a real memory of an artificial sensation. They also stimulated the VTA, causing the mouse to learn that the stimuli is bad.

The mouse will not have any memory it can "look back on" of receiving a shock. It will just have a general feeling that the scent is "bad" and to be avoided.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#93

Post by short_sells_poo »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

> The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory.

We've been doing it for a while with drugs. Some of them can cause a temporary loss of your short term memory.

It's a really bizarre sensation. You suddenly lose the ability to comprehend the chronology of recent events and can make no connection between real events and your own memory. There is no "now", you only have memories, and because you lost the causal link, you can't tell the difference between an authentic memory and your own imagination. I can only imagine how terrifying it would be to live like that constantly.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#94

Post by imtringued »

wruza wrote: post #38
slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

But imagine having much better memories than you have now. It is much better to wake up and go to work knowing that you spent a good vacation last three month, than having boring eternal life of a regular worker with low wage. Forget that your SO cheated on you. Believe that all people are good. If you’d sell memory tampering devices, are you sure that most of them would be used against someone other instead of on bu…

People already self-medicate themselves with alcohol and other drugs. Altering memories will just be one more thing on this list.

Since we are on a metaphorical treadmill where the vast majority of our wages are used on rivalrous goods like real estate or education the end result will be that people will work harder then alter their memories to continue beyond their breaking point. A 20 hour workday is no big deal because the company provides you with free memory alteration at the end of the work day. It doesn't matter that you slept at the office because you remember being at your nice single family home in the suburbs and sleeping for 8 hours.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#95

Post by jobigoud »

lostjohnny wrote: post #91
Kbelicius wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This! >The right to be forgotten (or to oblivion) is just the right to have your private informations deleted and the guarantee that what you delete online is really deleted and nobody can recover it. You say "this" and then written something completely different to what I wrote. As I said, AFAIK the right to be forgotten doesn't give you the right to delete any information. It just gives you the right to remove so…

> As I said, AFAIK the right to be forgotten doesn't give you the right to delete any information. It just gives you the right to remove some information from appearing in search engines. Sorry, probably lost in translation. I never said you have the right to delete any information, just you private informations and any data you own and you ask the controller to delete. I don't know if you are aware that in EU for EU…

The right to be forgotten predates GDPR, it's less about private data and more about obsolete public data. Like a prison sentence that you served and you have "paid your debt" to society, it avoids past mistakes to follow you forever even after you redeemed yourself.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#97

Post by roenxi »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

> Imagine not being able to believe your own memory.

I'm not aware of any evidence that we can believe our own memories. Memory is much like eyesight. There is a very complex process going on to give you the illusion of a clear and consistent picture that is at odds with what the messy and biological process we rely on can actually achieve.

The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess their memories for accuracy, so they are reliant on other people alerting them to problems. The feedback process there doesn't encourage correctness, it encourages conformance.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#98

Post by russdill »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

Nearly every time you recall an event, you are modifying your memory of the event.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-09-memory-gameeach-recal...

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#100

Post by namibj »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #93
slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

> The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. We've been doing it for a while with drugs. Some of them can cause a temporary loss of your short term memory. It's a really bizarre sensation. You suddenly lose the ability to comprehend the chronology of recent events and can make no connection between…

No need for drugs. You can train to use it against traumatic events, though the side-effects seem to be severe (inability to actually process what happened is only the beginning). You want temporarily accessible episodic memory, just so you can think about recent past.
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