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The Provocations of Camille Paglia

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Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#91

Post by stronglikedan »

sprafa wrote: post #82
Glide wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s sad to see people fall for guilt by association. In most interviews that Jordan Peterson has when he talks about meeting his fans is when he sounds the happiest. This really is what Scott Adams talks about with two movies and one screen. The interpretation of events speaks more about the interpreters rather than the actual events now.

This is not guilt by association. He didn’t happen to be around when they took the photo, he’s clearly enjoying having the Pepe flag in it. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vkSEmNoqhZY/maxresdefault.jpg I wasn’t going to mention it because sometimes I think it’s just 4chan trying to have a laugh by making everything appear controversial, but the guy on the left is doing a pseudo white nationalist symbol (even though again, I’v…

> the guy on the left is doing a pseudo white nationalist symbol (even though again, I’ve heard it’s not, but sometimes yes?

No, it's not now, and never was. It's always been the "OK" symbol, and always will be (as in, "Everything's okay over here!"). That was just some pathetic campaign from the left to get someone in trouble that merely disagreed with the "agenda".

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#92

Post by word-reader »

sprafa wrote: post #36

Peterson lost a lot of credibility for me when he took a group selfie with some guys with a big Pepe The Frog flag. I mean it’s kind of funny but 90% of the Pepe memes are actually racist and horrible (from what I’ve seen). After that I couldn’t take his alt-right denialism very seriously. It’s a shame because I actually think some of his talks are quite good.

This is absurd. Where on earth are these "racist and horrible" Pepe memes coming from? In reality, 90% of uses of the Pepe character (which is now a fading meme) are as an avatar or highlight of a post's emotion. Seriously, the majority of all Pepes ever posted have been either a sad frog, a smug frog, or a happy frog. People use the meme to help express themselves along with their text, and then people spazz out worse than a bored housewife hearing about D&D in 1985 or NWA in 1995.

Peterson may not even be able to see the flag in the photo, but he has known about Pepe for a while, and even mentioned the meme in his livestreams as "interesting", possibly because as a Jungian psychologist he sees some association with Abraxas, which is a kind of "god of nature" / good+evil archetype in some of Jung's writing.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#93

Post by alfromspace »

sterlind wrote: post #56
rvn1045 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not that familiar with her work. But my understanding is that when disciplines like gender studies were being formed they completely ignored biology and nature.in fact there were no biologists in the gender studies departments. And she was one of the first people to suggest that we must study gender with a basis in biology. This is what she may be referencing in the passage you quoted.

Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those second-wave feminist theories. David was the victim of a botched circumcision as an infant. His doctors decided to turn an outie into an innie, constructed a vagina, and told his parents to raise him as a woman. He was given "vitamin" pills (actually estrogen) a…

Biological factors like being intersex or botched surgeries are not relevant to gender identity 98% of the time. There really are only 2 sexes, I'm sorry to inform you. The trolls are right.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#94

Post by dmaldona »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #87
Hitton wrote: post #39

You can disagree with Camille Paglia's ideas, but one must respect her for her integrity and commitment to honest academic debate, which is sadly lacking nowadays in most western universities.

> sadly lacking nowadays in most western universities. Where do we still have "honest academic debate" then?

Anonymous internet forums.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#95

Post by DataWorker »

grey-area wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Lacan, Foucault and Derrida the pre-eminent influences on modern French academic literary theory? If so, why does she characterise them as minor?

Foucault and Derrida are certainly still read widely (and deservedly so IMO) - more widely than Paglia in Europe at least - describing them as 'minor' is a little silly. You don't have to accept everything they say to see that they have some relevance and value.

They have relevance amongst themselves alone, and their value can be established empirically as more negative than positive. They add confusion and noise, and their utility is that of a Che Guevara T-shirt.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#96

Post by danharaj »

sterlind wrote: post #56
rvn1045 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not that familiar with her work. But my understanding is that when disciplines like gender studies were being formed they completely ignored biology and nature.in fact there were no biologists in the gender studies departments. And she was one of the first people to suggest that we must study gender with a basis in biology. This is what she may be referencing in the passage you quoted.

Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those second-wave feminist theories. David was the victim of a botched circumcision as an infant. His doctors decided to turn an outie into an innie, constructed a vagina, and told his parents to raise him as a woman. He was given "vitamin" pills (actually estrogen) a…

> and forcibly socialized as female, but it didn't take.

Reimer's socialization was a lot more traumatic than being told he was female. The wikipedia article only touches the surface of the disturbing abuse he was subjected to.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#97

Post by danharaj »

not_a_terf wrote: post #66
sterlind wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those second-wave feminist theories. David was the victim of a botched circumcision as an infant. His doctors decided to turn an outie into an innie, constructed a vagina, and told his parents to raise him as a woman. He was given "vitamin" pills (actually estrogen) a…

Wouldn't the Reimer story support a naive version of biological sex moreso than an acceptance of gender identity?

It supports believing people about what their gender identity is instead of imposing it on them.

The rate of attempted suicide in transgender people is over 40% if they are not socially supported. That rate drops to general population levels in trans people who have familial and community support when transitioning.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#98

Post by danharaj »

ryan-allen wrote: post #51
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes you can: men have testosterone, so they're more aggressive, which turns out to translate to asking for more pay raises more often and changing jobs more quickly if unhappy with their pay. Hey presto, a biological basis for unequal pay. Now obviously this doesn't explain everything about unequal pay -- but it would be foolish to ignore entirely, no?

Apparently this is a topic you're not allowed to talk about, even if you can prove it empirically.

We're talking about it right now. What do you mean?

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#99

Post by alfromspace »

grey-area wrote: post #14

Camille Paglia is over-rated IMO. I've read a couple of her books and there is little of substance there under the gnomic bombast and pseudo-academic jargon. An example from the start of her most famous book: In the beginning was nature. The background from which and against which our ideas of god were formed, nature remains the supreme moral problem. We cannot hope to understand sex and gender until we clarify our a…

That passage is perfect. The third-wave feminists, activist-journalists and academics claim to be fighting against socially constructed ideas, but what they really tend to be waging an all-out war against is nature - and to replace natural ways of being and thinking with THEIR socially constructed, immensely convoluted ideas that had no chance of being accepted without the backing of extremely powerful institutions like academia, the media, social media, big corporations, and harassment journalism - imposing tremendous costs to not adopting them.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#100

Post by anthonypasq »

Hitton wrote: post #39

You can disagree with Camille Paglia's ideas, but one must respect her for her integrity and commitment to honest academic debate, which is sadly lacking nowadays in most western universities.

you watch too many alt-right youtube videos.

Debate is extremely alive an well in nearly all universities

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