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US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

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Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#91

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux »

Kapura wrote: post #80
rossdavidh wrote: post #2

You know, I think touchscreens are not preferable unless you need/want to be able to have controls for many different systems in the same space (e.g. a smartphone with multiple apps). If you are needing a dedicated control for a high-stakes system, the fact that it's a more modern-looking interface should not matter. Touchscreens are inherently inferior to a mechanical interface, if it's a single-system (i.e. doesn't…

This is absolutely correct. Humans are physical creatures living in a physical world and our brains have evolved to interact with that world in a physical way. Touch-screen interfaces, even good ones, necessitate a level of mental abstraction, which is going to make operating in a fatigued state even more difficult.

To add, we're analog creatures.

For a human to interface with anything digital, we need to drop what we’re doing and fully engage the touch interface.

Dangerous when driving, or similar.

With analog interfaces, our hands know exactly where to go and what to do just on feel, keeping attention elsewhere.

I’m glad the DOD made this decision and I hope others will follow.

Just because you can chip it doesn’t mean you should.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#92

Post by dantillberg »

Someone1234 wrote: post #48
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?

It isn't caused by any specific humidity levels. While it is depositing water droplets on to the glass surface, that same water is normally suspended harmlessly in the air (it is effectively de-humidifying the air onto the cold windows). It is caused by the glass's surface temperature being much lower than the air temperature inside the car. Humans are warm. The air we breath is warm. We're heating up the interior of…

Yes, but could we maybe get a decent approximation of the windshield temperature from interior temperature, exterior temperature, and speed? Combined with interior/exterior humidity (maybe these gauges might be the expensive/finicky part of this project?), we could calculate a probability of window fogging.

It doesn't have to be perfect -- we can have it just turn on the defrost whenever the probability of window fogging is >10% or something.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#93

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

Someone1234 wrote: post #55
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're making some very false choices between smarts/voice compatibility and physical controls. Physical buttons and dials for users to interact with that still can be changed by the system are wholly possible. For instance, a rocker switch that sits in the middle can be used to issue on and off commands, while being separate from say, a status light that lets you know whether the device is on or off. Whi…

> Physical buttons and dials for users to interact with that still can be changed by the system are wholly possible. Sure, but irrational. One of the largest benefits of physical controls is physical feedback, like being about to feel if you've reached the max cold/hot ceilings or the state of the switches. To make them voice compatible you have to remove that physical association (e.g. infinite spinners, or blind sw…

One of my friends has a motorized knob he uses for volume control- shr wrote a script that relays the current volume to the Arduino that controls the whole thing.

It's awesome- I love that thing so much and have parts on the way to build my own.

I think the issue is more bad integration than it is a bad idea.

A VFD or 7-segment display next to a pair of buttons for up and down works quite well for temperature control, and lets you integrate it nicely with digital controls.

The issue here is not that it's impossible to integrate the analog physical and the digital aether- it's the implementation that's oft lacking.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#94

Post by zrobotics »

bartread wrote: post #22
Nextgrid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is different. The issue here wasn’t the use of a general-purpose device itself but that the device they used (a touchscreen) wasn’t the best fit for the task at hand. Even worse, multiple screens were able to control the ship at the same time which to me seems to be the root cause of the accident. A single touchscreen still wouldn’t have been ideal, but it would’ve still prevented the accident IMO. In the case o…

Exactly: Xbox controllers are highly tactile and ergonomically designed so that they can be used effectively without ever having to look at them. In-car touchscreens are a menace, and a design fad that I cannot wait to see pass.

Additionally, they are proven to be highly ergonomic for a very wide swath of people. They aren't ideal for everyone (no input device can be ergonomic for literally everyone) but as shown from the wide array of people who can effectively use them they are tolerable for long periods of use for a (likely majority) of the population and already benefit from muscle memory for a lot of people. There's a good reason the Xbox and Playstation controllers share a very similar form factor, and have done so for several hardware generations now.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#95

Post by ocdtrekkie »

liability wrote: post #57
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the current solution doesn't work. Because trying to perfect those settings manually while driving in near zero visibility is scary and dangerous. And nobody even knows the correct settings to use! There are YouTube videos testing whether cold or warm air is the fastest way to defrost and/or defog your window, because nobody knows or remembers. I honestly don't remember and my solution is "try both for…

Manual works just fine. I just drove clear across the Trans-Canadian Highway, east to west, in a car with manual controls and it all worked great. Your eyes stay on the road because sober people can reach out and grab objects, like knobs or buttons, without looking. If the matter of defrosting confuses you then maybe you should sit down in your car for five minutes and learn how the multi-ton machine works before att…

One: I think we can discuss this without condescension for anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Two: You are making a false choice: Automatic settings need not replace manual ones. Essentially what we are talking about is a spot on the dial that says "auto" which you are free to not use, much like headlight controls on higher end cars.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#96

Post by tempguy9999 »

Iv wrote: post #8
rossdavidh wrote: post #2

You know, I think touchscreens are not preferable unless you need/want to be able to have controls for many different systems in the same space (e.g. a smartphone with multiple apps). If you are needing a dedicated control for a high-stakes system, the fact that it's a more modern-looking interface should not matter. Touchscreens are inherently inferior to a mechanical interface, if it's a single-system (i.e. doesn't…

I really think that nowadays touchscreens are becoming the cheap option. To me when I see a machine with custom designed button I know they had to do some mechanical design, whereas a flat touch screen just says "we slapped a tablet there and hacked an interface on android".

Which is ironic because I'd happily pay more not to have one. I bought a replacement for my 10+ year old MP3 player. The new thing is so cool and slick and flat and sophisticated and plain complex, and it's horrible to use. It demands your attention for everything.

My old MP3 player with its physical buttons and weird control lever, well, I could work it by touch and muscle memory.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#97

Post by ocdtrekkie »

Someone1234 wrote: post #48
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?

It isn't caused by any specific humidity levels. While it is depositing water droplets on to the glass surface, that same water is normally suspended harmlessly in the air (it is effectively de-humidifying the air onto the cold windows). It is caused by the glass's surface temperature being much lower than the air temperature inside the car. Humans are warm. The air we breath is warm. We're heating up the interior of…

It's not super accurate, but most cars these days also have outside temperature. Add a humidity sensor inside and outside, and we have temperature and humidity inside and outside the car, which should give us enough information for a basic microcontroller to approximate the temperature differential across the glass and whether or not fog (or frost) is likely.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#99

Post by mrweasel »

meddlepal wrote: post #60

> and that many were fatigued, with an average of 4.9 hours of sleep between the 14 crew members present. I suspect this played more of a role than any of the controls or procedures did. I had a friend in the Navy and he once explained the shifts he did to me and how utterly insane they were. I suspect leadership doesn't want to (or cant) fix the root cause (fatigue) and is happy to spend tax dollars to replace the s…

I'm not going to argue that the navy should be allow insane schedule, if it's due to budget or poor planing, but in case of a real war maybe you can't expect the grew to get a full 8 hour sleep.

A warship need to be able to operate under the worst of circumstances. In that case every move you make needs to be reflex, and I can imagine that touchscreens aren't ideal for quick precise motions, done by reflex, after only 4 hours of sleep.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#100

Post by IceWreck »

xnyan wrote: post #65
dmix wrote: post #23

We still use controllers for most video games over keyboards/mice or touch pads for a good reasons related to how games are played (from a couch vs desk) or the types of games. No human computer interface is a panacea. It should always be a mix for any complex system, not either/or.

It depends on the game and your personal preferences. I can't imagine any enjoying a RTS or 4x like Civilization with a gamepad. I prefer a mouse for 1st person shooters, for whatever reason I simply can't aim accurately or quickly with a analog joystick.

Thats not just you. A skilled joystick player will be easily beaten by a mediocre player with a keyboard/mouse if all the other conditions are the same.

Infact, most games have aim assist if you use a controller as means of input.

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