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Why is modern web development so complicated?

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Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#91

Post by progval »

efficax wrote: post #53
mark_and_sweep wrote: post #43

I think the default should be: Don't use any JavaScript if you don't have to. And if you have to, use it responsibly. Recommended reading: - "Responsible JavaScript: Part I" by Jeremy Wagner ( https://alistapart.com/article/responsible-javascript-part-1... ) - "A JavaScript-Free Frontend" by Matt Reyer ( https://dev.to/winduptoy/a-javascript-free-frontend-2d3e ) Disclaimer: I'm from Germany, but have a 6-y/o Android…

javascript rules, and you can't build truly interactive sites without it (try to build a refine-as-you-type search bar with just html and css). Here's my hot take: JS is good and has made the web better.

> javascript rules, and you can't build truly interactive sites without it

But does the website you're building need to be interactive? Usually not, unless it's a webapp. (Maybe for form validation but that's pretty much it.)

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#92

Post by theandrewbailey »

reaperducer wrote: post #38

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

> The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with the new no-nonsense site that they raved to the parent company about it.

Any reason they liked it in particular? Faster? Better/cleaner UI?

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#93

Post by snazz »

ayushgp wrote: post #37
eswat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’ve done a great job of convincing each other within our tech bubble than everyone wants a SPA. Not sure the general public cares for our enthusiasm though.

Everyone(well almost) wants a SPA or at the very least non reloading pages. No one wants to reload the page with every action they perform or if only a part of the area on screen needed to be updated and the page was reloaded anyways.

Everyone (well almost) wants a server-templated site or at the very least a functioning back button. No one wants to sit and wait for 3 million lines of JavaScript to parse and run with every press of the back button (and probably not even get to the same state as before!).

Yes, I know there are some stellar SPAs that actually work. But I can't see why they're necessary 97% of the time and it really bothers me when I see a SPA where one isn't needed that breaks basic functionality like back buttons and right-click and all that other jazz.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#94

Post by justbaker »

afarrell wrote: post #73
TotempaaltJ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's the trick to not building shit software: don't build shit software. It's a crude way to put it, but the reality is that you can build bad websites in any framework (including old PHP stuff and new JavaScript hype). You can also build good websites in any framework. It depends way more on the organisation or team developing it than on the libraries you use.

The trouble is that "don't build shit software" isn't actionable advice on how to avoid building shit software. For someone seeking to be a more skillful web software engineer, there's no information there.

It means the underlying problem is not the tooling, but the use of the tooling.

In other words, "I can choose the correct tool but still fail from poor approach of problem."

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#95

Post by jorblumesea »

TotempaaltJ wrote: post #65
orf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you consider that the next developer might well come along and post a similar comment: > It replaced a site that was pretty much a home-grown PHP framework written by a single developer. Random mixed logic in templates, hard to update CSS and a poorly designed 'not-an-ORM' ORM. Not to say that your rewrite is like that, but one man's garbage is another man's treasure.

And here's the trick to not building shit software: don't build shit software. It's a crude way to put it, but the reality is that you can build bad websites in any framework (including old PHP stuff and new JavaScript hype). You can also build good websites in any framework. It depends way more on the organisation or team developing it than on the libraries you use.

Do you think anyone goes into a project thinking: "I'm going to build some complete garbage"?

Shifting project and business requirements, scope creep, poor design choices and lack of competence all contribute to what makes bad software.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#97

Post by TomMarius »

avgDev wrote: post #74
anthony_doan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even use a backend rendering framework? MVC PHP frameworks are very nice and they don't move as fast as those javascript frontend rendering. Also the ORM deals with any security problems and most framework deals with other security deals too including session handling.

This seems odd to me. I have been working in .Net MVC/Core and while I could write an application that is simply HTML/CSS/C#, I would think it would be insane to do so. It takes a massive amount of resources to develop your own security, your own data access without any ORM tools, not cause memory leaks, properly disposing of resource. I'm all about creating reliable applications, but a good framework is a great tool…

PHP is way more "batteries included" than C# without ASP.NET

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#98

Post by avgDev »

TotempaaltJ wrote: post #65
orf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you consider that the next developer might well come along and post a similar comment: > It replaced a site that was pretty much a home-grown PHP framework written by a single developer. Random mixed logic in templates, hard to update CSS and a poorly designed 'not-an-ORM' ORM. Not to say that your rewrite is like that, but one man's garbage is another man's treasure.

And here's the trick to not building shit software: don't build shit software. It's a crude way to put it, but the reality is that you can build bad websites in any framework (including old PHP stuff and new JavaScript hype). You can also build good websites in any framework. It depends way more on the organisation or team developing it than on the libraries you use.

I agree as I build some terrible applications in .Net MVC, which is a decent framework. I think you have to build shit software not to build shit software.

First, professional web app I developed 3 years ago is still being build upon now. Even though it is pure garbage and I hate touching it, because I "made it work". As I gained experience and got burned because I did something a certain way I slowly but surely looked for alternative approaches.

Now 3 years later, I'm building an app with layered architecture, proper separation of concerns, dependency injection. Plus, before I start hammering code away, I think about what is the number 1 priority for a piece of code, am I gonna use it once and forget it? Will I use it all the time? Then, proceed accordingly.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#99

Post by jjbiotech »

goatinaboat wrote: post #63

Webdevs tend to suffer from an inferiority complex, that they are not considered “real” developers by the rest of the community. So they have responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated to try to prove something to the C++ guys, who simply don’t care, until they try to use the dumpster fire that is any modern website, that is. Then it has the opposite of the intended effect! Someone else men…

Mangling back button functionality isn't inherent of SPAs.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#100

Post by renke1 »

goatinaboat wrote: post #63

Webdevs tend to suffer from an inferiority complex, that they are not considered “real” developers by the rest of the community. So they have responded by making the simple things they do monstrously complicated to try to prove something to the C++ guys, who simply don’t care, until they try to use the dumpster fire that is any modern website, that is. Then it has the opposite of the intended effect! Someone else men…

Who is considered a "real" developer these days?
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