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Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

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Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#91
post #44

"leapfrog for the masses" Is this how googlers refer to results of their work and people respectively?

When human beings are part of an association that is verifiably elite, it is quite common for them to have elitist attitudes.

Which elite verifier verified that?

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went from waiter -> self-educated SW engineer founding own startup -> sold startup -> Google. (Been on 3 teams, all of which shipped to match HW deadlines) The only thing noteworthy about Google is _there is no process_. Hell, just last week, a coworker and I finally resolved a year-long difference of opinion when it clicked for him that there wasn't a defined system, insomuch as there was one I was defining it, an…

Can you explain that better? Basically in a nutshell they don't have worthless agile processes?

The teams I have worked on at Google have no process on a team level. We just copied the mandatory things like code reviews and automated testing, other than that people just figure out what to do on their own. The main motivation people have to work is so they have something nice to put in their biannual performance evaluation, so everyone is very eager to try to solve problems. Of course if you bite off more than you can chew and totally fail then you have nothing, so people try to pick sensible projects which will actually succeed.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "the masses" offensive?

For someone who doesn't want to be painted in broad strokes, it seems like a very broad brush to paint non-Googlers with.

I'm so fucking sick of people being offended by everything

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#94
post #2

Can the teams at Google experience processes where they talk to their customers, iterate, talk to customers, iterate again and move fast and break stuff - releasing at each step of the way and measuring their intended A/B/C tests? I suspect a company like that has committees and subcommittees and review processes and 100 layers of bureaucracy before anything even gets done I bet there are projects that reached a prod…

GSuite does an incredible amount of talking to customers, because it’s easy to know who your target customer is. But who does a Billion-user consumer app talk to? For that we rely on internal testing and reporting feedback from family/friends.

People do read your in product feedback, btw. But it takes quarters for anyone to triage and act on it.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#95
post #66
post #29

> This type of innovation takes significant up-front design time, and working on components over longer than one week iterations. Because the projects have such simple external interfaces, and so much internal complexity, much of the work is not even visible to “customers”, so there is no way to write customer visible stories about it. This type of software takes 8–20 months to deliver the first working version to th…

I was at Y! at the same time , I witnesssed so many managers gaming the review system . So many funny , and some sad stories from that time.

Would love to hear some!

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#96
post #38
post #29

> This type of innovation takes significant up-front design time, and working on components over longer than one week iterations. Because the projects have such simple external interfaces, and so much internal complexity, much of the work is not even visible to “customers”, so there is no way to write customer visible stories about it. This type of software takes 8–20 months to deliver the first working version to th…

> Little did my manager know that a few quarters of "meets expectations" had caused HR to drop me into the bottom 5% of the company and so I received a letter from HR that I was at risk of being terminated. This is disturbing and, I think, a twisted form of grade inflation, mixed with the usual suitspeak where words don't necessarily mean what they mean. If an employee is as good as you think they should be, why woul…

This is 100% caused by stack ranking, and the problem you identify is a very real one. Chopping off the bottom 5% of employees works if you have a LOT of dead weight, but realistically you can't really do it continuously or you start removing legitimate talent and, just as worse, fostering a toxic community that values playing politics over delivering value.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#97

I personally think that it is all matter of risk. The risk of contract work (which is what the agile manifesto writers were facing most of their careers [they are all consultants), is building something that the customer do not want or did not intend do. The actual tech risk is very low (e.g. ruby on rails on postgres) since most of them use mature technology. In this case the agile manifesto make sense - I.e. we can…

Even without mature technology, you want to shake down the new tech early to find out if it’s going to crumble around your shoulders at the worst possible moment.

While Agile is not perfect for this kind of work, it does have a lot of facility in this area.

Now if you could just get any two people to agree on what constitutes the last responsible moment...

And with new tech you often have to do it first or do it better. Oddly I find Agile seems to work better for “do it better” because if it’s easier for you to add features than your competitor, they will probably get burned out before you do. If you can survive that long you start to pull ahead.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#98
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone who doesn't want to be painted in broad strokes, it seems like a very broad brush to paint non-Googlers with.

I'm so fucking sick of people being offended by everything

I'm so tired of people being sick of people being offended by everything.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#99
post #9

There is unfortunately a large gulf between “agile” and “Agile” development these days. The former refers to development generally in line with the agile manifesto, with processes tailored to the needs of the team and the project. The latter is a buzzword used by consultants to convince management to put their favored bureaucratic method in place, usually some variant on the scrum system.

This is mostly what I see happen too, "Agile" is used an excuse to introduce some type of bureaucratic process to fix what is actually pathological cultural / leadership issues.

Agile as practiced by nontechnical managers is essentially a hill climbing algorithm.

And I think we all learned in college that hill climbing rarely if ever finds the optimal solution. Often it doesn’t even find Good Enough. But it’s the best thing you can see in the vicinity so it gets labeled Good Enough even over the protests of people who have done it better elsewhere.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#100
post #38
post #29

> This type of innovation takes significant up-front design time, and working on components over longer than one week iterations. Because the projects have such simple external interfaces, and so much internal complexity, much of the work is not even visible to “customers”, so there is no way to write customer visible stories about it. This type of software takes 8–20 months to deliver the first working version to th…

> Little did my manager know that a few quarters of "meets expectations" had caused HR to drop me into the bottom 5% of the company and so I received a letter from HR that I was at risk of being terminated. This is disturbing and, I think, a twisted form of grade inflation, mixed with the usual suitspeak where words don't necessarily mean what they mean. If an employee is as good as you think they should be, why woul…

If an employee is as good as you think they should be, why would you put it at risk of termination?

Because quality of the employee and the employee's work are not the only factors in hiring and firing decisions. Sometimes a smaller workforce is what makes sense, and if all your engineers are "meeting expectations", what are you going to do?

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