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Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

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Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#91
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I can just refuse to decrypt my data. They can just break physical locks.

This is what a lot of people in our community seemingly refuse to recognize. For all intents and purposes, encryption is a unbreakable lock that can serve to perfectly hide valuable criminal evidence. Such a thing wasn't possible when our laws were written and has never before been possible in the physical world. Its existence has potential to be a huge shift in how we enforce the law. Regardless of our views on encr…

> Regardless of our views on encryption, we need to have a conversation about that shift. Refusing to have that discussion

That discussion has occurred several times. The government keeps talking after they hear the inevitable "no", at which point it's no longer a useful discussion.

There are no possible alternatives. Every possible alternative is equivalent to a backdoor. Any continuation of a discussion leads to "can we have a backdoor".

"Can we continue the discussion" amounts to "you haven't given us a backdoor yet".

There is a useful distinction to draw, though. There are two versions of "no". Some people use "no, that's not possible" (e.g. for technical reasons or because it'll break security properties), in which case the response either involves asking someone else or trying to legislate without knowledge. And some people use "no, we won't do that" (because it's working as designed and we're not looking to reduce security), in which case the responses involves anger and something roughly equivalent in content and tone to "why do you hate (insert country name here)".

Other useful variations on "no": "and what would you have us say when a country you don't like comes to our offices in their country and asks the same question". That one seems to produce slightly more thought, but ultimately an entitled response suggesting there should be some way to prefer their particular jurisdiction over all the others.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#92
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I can just refuse to decrypt my data. They can just break physical locks.

This is what a lot of people in our community seemingly refuse to recognize. For all intents and purposes, encryption is a unbreakable lock that can serve to perfectly hide valuable criminal evidence. Such a thing wasn't possible when our laws were written and has never before been possible in the physical world. Its existence has potential to be a huge shift in how we enforce the law. Regardless of our views on encr…

> Regardless of our views on encryption, we need to have a conversation about that shift.

I agree that this is the real discussion, but I think that there is indeed a vibrant, worldwide discussion happening on this topic with more frequency and intensity than has ever been the case before.

The writing on the wall is unambiguous: the internet is an evolutionary force whose trajectory and destiny are to deprecate monopolistic government. This has already been shown convincingly with respect to censorship. It is increasingly obvious with respect to intellectual property and remix art. On the horizons are monetary policy and policing.

The humane and sane approach here is to get out of the way and let evolution run its course. Every time the state insists on pre-information age norms, it sounds to me like a whining adolescent, surprised that some of its childhood toys have broken.

The old model of investigative surveillance is broken - broken because of cameras which can reveal the conduct of (uniformed or undercover) state agents, broken because instantaneous worldwide communication moves much faster than bureaucracy, and yes, broken because cryptography.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#93
post #84
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. Here's my contribution to the conversation: Mr Barr, your entreaties in this regard are based on the presumption that the government can be trusted. But our nation was founded on a mistrust of government, and your own actions demonstrate that the government cannot be trusted. Your own special counsel has issued a report that implicates the president in a felony (obstruction of justice) but you have failed to fo…

The problem with this line of argument is that it is a general argument against government and not specific to this issue. You could use the exact same argument for why you shot a police officer who broke down your door after securing a warrant. It would quickly be dismissed in that instance so it should carry little weight in the discussion of encryption. If you want the government to completely give up this line of…

> You could use the exact same argument for why you shot a police officer who broke down your door after securing a warrant.

No, I couldn't. The operative word there is not "shoot", it's "warrant." The fourth amendment explicitly makes an exception for warrants. If the government has a warrant then I am legally bound to hand over my keys. If I don't, they can put me in prison for that.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#94

He claims encryption is "warrant proof" which is not true. You can have a court order someone to open the lock. They want the ability to dig through people's stuff without them knowing. That's what it's really about.

Sure, but I can just refuse to decrypt my data. They can just break physical locks.

I wonder whether there is any work on plausibly deniable public key cryptography.

The sender uses the public key to encrypt the plaintext, and the receiver uses their private key to decipher the ciphertext, as usual. But, on being compelled, the receiver can also choose an arbitrary target plaintext, and efficiently compute a new private key that maps the ciphertext to the chosen target plaintext.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#95
post #79

Modern encryption is really just math. Cryptography in consumer and off-the-shelf products (which Barr is targeting with his discussion) theoretically _could_ be modified in such a way that the government could decrypt it. The two ways of which I can think are (1) Encryption "backdoors" -- fancy math known only to the government; this would require new encryption ciphers or (b) key escrow. Both approaches have their…

This is all true, but I think encryption backdoors are more possible than people think. The target here is not nerds able to pull code from GitHub or run open source or enterprise software. The target here is consumer stuff by companies like Apple and Google. The government doesn't want it to be easy to do end-to-end encryption. For the average user, easy equals possible. The average user has neither the time nor the…

The scenario you described accomplishes both goals.

By banning 'the masses' from using encrypted communications, it'll sort the haystack and everyone who continues to do so can be profiled, plus they're already involved in illegal behavior.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#96
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I can just refuse to decrypt my data. They can just break physical locks.

This is what a lot of people in our community seemingly refuse to recognize. For all intents and purposes, encryption is a unbreakable lock that can serve to perfectly hide valuable criminal evidence. Such a thing wasn't possible when our laws were written and has never before been possible in the physical world. Its existence has potential to be a huge shift in how we enforce the law. Regardless of our views on encr…

> encryption is a unbreakable lock that can serve to perfectly hide valuable criminal evidence. Such a thing wasn't possible when our laws were written and has never before been possible in the physical world.

Uh... what? There is plenty in the law concerning modern digital encryption. Ciphers have been around for thousands of years. If by "our laws" you mean the constitution, Benjamin Franklin apparently didn't think encryption was worth restricting during the constitutional convention, and that's not because he did not know about it.

> Its existence has potential to be a huge shift in how we enforce the law. Regardless of our views on encryption, we need to have a conversation about that shift. Refusing to have that discussion is likely a quicker path to things like government enforced backdoors than if we engaged with government and law enforcement on possible alternatives

You're acting like this is a new debate, but this is something DOJ has been on about for a long time. If the past is any guide we'll certainly "have a conversation" about it when the DOJ begins attempting to put people using or providing forms of encryption they don't like into prison, just like they tried to do 30 years ago.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#97
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it’s not a discussion worth having. If you have a back door, it’s there for everybody not just the people it’s intended for. Additionally, there’s not going to be a way to force people to use the encryption that happens to have a backdoor. It’s an algorithm. People who don’t obey the rules will just use a more secure method when they need to protect something. This is why there’s no point to having the convers…

Do you realize how condescending it is when someone comes to you with a problem and your answer is that "is not a discussion worth having"? Warrants losing their power in the digital age is a problem and our community's refusal to recognize that just pushes the government down alternative routes to something like PRISM. Also focusing on enforcement is making the perfect the enemy of the good. What percentage of commu…

Warrants aren’t losing their power, warrants are gaining power! Never before have you been able to issue a warrant to a phone company and get someone’s location in real time, to a tech company and get the copies of all their sent mail perfectly preserved, or to their bank or credit agency to get a record of nearly every transaction they have ever made. The rate at which new information available to law enforcement might be slowing down, but it is still increasing YoY even with encryption on the rise.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#98
post #68
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what a lot of people in our community seemingly refuse to recognize. For all intents and purposes, encryption is a unbreakable lock that can serve to perfectly hide valuable criminal evidence. Such a thing wasn't possible when our laws were written and has never before been possible in the physical world. Its existence has potential to be a huge shift in how we enforce the law. Regardless of our views on encr…

Cryptography has existed for over 3000 years [1], steganography [2] has been documented in use over 2000 years ago and it's possible it has been used much longer (the entire point is we wouldn't know). If encryption is being used to hide "valuable criminal evidence", how is that different from someone hiding evidence by burying it somewhere or simply destroying it? We don't detain random people and force them to give…

Lots of people are bringing up these type of issues, so let me just address them generally. Defaults are important. Yes, it was always possible to build some elaborate booby trapped safe, bury the evidence in the middle of the Mojave Desert, or cook up some home made encryption algorithm to hide evidence. However that wasn't the default. It took elaborate planning and dedication that most people simply didn't have. For example if the average person jotted down an offhanded note, they probably did it in plain English on a regular piece of paper and left it on their desk at home. Now the same note would by default be encrypted on their phone and protected against warrants.

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#99
> The Department has made clear what we are seeking. We believe that when technology providers deploy encryption in their products, services, and platforms they need to maintain an appropriate mechanism for lawful access. This means a way for government entities, when they have appropriate legal authority, to access data securely, promptly, and in an intelligible format, whether it is stored on a device or in transmission. We do not seek to prescribe any particular solution. Our private-sector technology providers have immensely talented engineers who have built the very products and services that we are talking about. They are in the best position to determine what methods of lawful access work best for their technology. But there have been enough dogmatic pronouncements that lawful access simply cannot be done. It can be, and it must be.

This seems to be the key part. He doesn't believe technologists who claim both goals cannot be achieved at once, he claims they can

Re: Attorney General William P. Barr Delivers Address Conference on Cyber Security

#100

He claims encryption is "warrant proof" which is not true. You can have a court order someone to open the lock. They want the ability to dig through people's stuff without them knowing. That's what it's really about.

They can issue a warrant on the client side user

They are just too lazy to do that. They want to go on fishing expeditions and are mad they cant.

Yes it is incomprehensibly expensive for the government to do investigations on everyone, thats the point and how it was before everyone had digital artifacts

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