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Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

stripe.com

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Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#91
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but they didn't recover speedily. To have the cluster in such a state for so long sounds like poor monitoring to me because this can knowingly interfere with an election later.

The health check said it was ok. How would they know it needed to be recovered? The fault was the bad health check. Not the process.

They only just clarified that monitoring was in place and they were reporting as healthy. See the comments above.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#92
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you have a ATM thats not networked?

Same user (sorry I guess I didn't enter my password carefully as I can't log in.) Well I mean they're not exactly on the Internet with an IP address and no firewall, are they? (Or they would have been compromised already.) Whatever it is, it must be separated off as an "insecure enclave". So that's why I'm wondering about this technique. You don't just miss out on security updates, you miss performance and architectu…

Secure .. enclave? I'm sorry but I think you're throwing buzzwords around hoping to hit a homerun here.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both have had plenty of downtime: https://www.ft.com/content/1fd2a066-860f-11e8-a29d-73e3d4545... I suspect they sometimes 'fail open' (ie. allow all payments through and reconcile later) too.

No they don't. If I sell a diamond ring for $20k and Visa passes that the card is valid but it's not. The buyer just got a free $20k ring. Card could be expired, cancelled, or not have enough balance. The merchant must be paid, their processor has to pay them, the bank that issued the card must provide that credit until the card holder pays it back. If the card was expired or a card with a $10 balance. The card holde…

Actually, merchants, acquirers, and issuers can do this. It happens sometimes. When it happens, other limits come into play downstream, such as terminal configuration. There are separate offline limits, and it is unlikely they would set it that high, so a $20,000 offline charge would be declined, even if a lesser charge would be approved, stored, and processed later. As for expired cards, the expiration date is on the mag stripe and in the chip, so the transaction could be rejected at any point, even offline at the terminal. It's also printed on the card so it might be rejected before it's even swiped or dipped.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#94

Why don't they call 'significantly elevated error rates' an 'outage' instead?

Because "A substantial majority of API requests during these windows failed. " implying that there was not a complete outage. I don't understand why people demand the usage of incorrect language.

> Because "A substantial majority of API requests during these windows failed. " implying that there was not a complete outage.

The fact that you needed to qualify “outage” with “complete” clearly means the word on its own is not incorrect for cases where a system was “only” mostly unavailable rather than completely so.

> I don't understand why people demand the usage of incorrect language.

The irony.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#95
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same user (sorry I guess I didn't enter my password carefully as I can't log in.) Well I mean they're not exactly on the Internet with an IP address and no firewall, are they? (Or they would have been compromised already.) Whatever it is, it must be separated off as an "insecure enclave". So that's why I'm wondering about this technique. You don't just miss out on security updates, you miss performance and architectu…

Secure .. enclave? I'm sorry but I think you're throwing buzzwords around hoping to hit a homerun here.

No, it's a fair question. The word "enclave" has a general meaning in English as a state surrounded entirely by another, or metaphorically a zone with some degree of isolation from its surroundings.

So the legit question is, can insecure systems (e.g. ancient mainframes) be wrapped by a security layer (WAF, etc.) to get better uptime than patching an exposed system?

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#96
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Stripe infra lead here) This was a focus in our after-action review. The nodes responded as healthy to active checks, while silently dropping updates on their replication lag, together this created the impression of a healthy node. The missing bit was verifying the absence of lag updates. (Which we have now.)

I am a curious and very amateur person, but do you think that if "100%" uptime were your goal, this: "[Three months prior to the incident] We upgraded our databases to a new minor version that introduced a subtle, undetected fault in the database’s failover system." could have been prevented if you had stopped upgrading minor versions, i.e. froze on one specific version and not even applied security fixes, instead re…

You could use that same logic to argue that they should never write any new code, just live forever on the existing code.

But customers want new features, so Stripe does changes.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#97
post #53

Why don't they call 'significantly elevated error rates' an 'outage' instead?

(Stripe CTO here) That's a reasonable question. We wrote this RCA to help our users understand what had happened and to help inform their own response efforts. Because a large absolute number of requests with stateful consequences (including e.g. moving money IRL) succeeded during the event, we wanted to avoid customers believing that retrying all requests would be necessarily safe. For example, users (if they don’t…

And thank you for the answer and for being open to outsider input.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#98
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure .. enclave? I'm sorry but I think you're throwing buzzwords around hoping to hit a homerun here.

No, it's a fair question. The word "enclave" has a general meaning in English as a state surrounded entirely by another, or metaphorically a zone with some degree of isolation from its surroundings. So the legit question is, can insecure systems (e.g. ancient mainframes) be wrapped by a security layer (WAF, etc.) to get better uptime than patching an exposed system?

yes, thank you.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#99
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainframes. > Visa, for example, uses the mainframe to process billions of credit and debit card payments every year. > According to some estimates, up to $3 trillion in daily commerce flows through mainframes. https://www.share.org/blog/mainframe-matters-how-mainframes-... https://blog.syncsort.com/2018/06/mainframe/9-mainframe-stat... https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/servers/mainframes

Specifically they run IBM zTPF on their mainframes, which is also used by airlines. Some installations have uptimes measured in decades. https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/transaction-processi...

It's rarely the hardware that fails, it's more often due to software. So I wonder what the software that's running on mainframes does differently than the software that's written for ordinary computers.

Re: Root cause analysis: significantly elevated error rates on 2019‑07‑10

#100
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically they run IBM zTPF on their mainframes, which is also used by airlines. Some installations have uptimes measured in decades. https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/transaction-processi...

It's rarely the hardware that fails, it's more often due to software. So I wonder what the software that's running on mainframes does differently than the software that's written for ordinary computers.

May it's not what it does but that it is written in COBOL?
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