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Thaddeus Kosciusko

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Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#91

Post by 6d6b73 »

jwieczorek wrote: post #82
6d6b73 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tsar Alexander II was the ruler of the occupying nation, so forgive us for not considering him one of the best rulers in our history. Perhaps if Russia didn't partition Poland, Kosciuszko would have successfully abolished serfdom long before Russians even thought about doing it, so sorry for not being thankful for his great contributions.

Claims like this are essentially impossible to have a reasonable historical discussion about, because they do not concern history but rather alternative history , and the two are mostly disjoint. One is concerned with facts, the other – with fantasy. And facts are more interesting and meaningful. When it comes to facts, it's worth understanding why Russia took part in the partitions of Poland ( hint : as is well-know…

Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely add it to my list . So there is no misunderstanding - I agree with everything you said, however, the problem with facts when looking at history, are that we're really don't know all of them. Just look at the situation today - every country has it's own propaganda machine, trying to spin the truth so they can present their point of view as THE facts. In 200 years the facts will be not what really happened, but what we can piece from the few articles and books that will survive. And who knows how close to the real truth they will be?

But the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

The idea behind my original post was to get people to give me some names of the important figures from their countries, so I can learn more about their history, views, and heroes. I don't want not to talk about the complicated history of one nation, but about these ignored (by the western society) heroes of exploration, science, politics that we never talk about because - how many people really know history of Tibet, or Uganda or.. _fill the blanks_. How many people heard about __ who discovered ____ but lived in a _____ so only few people heard about them? But we can't talk about that because someone has to prove why your side is as bad, or worst as my side.. FFS

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#92

Post by munificent »

alboy wrote: post #66

What strikes me the most whenever I read about this period is how no-hassle moving between countries used to be. For some reason we think of the modern world as finally "global" and "open", but it doesn't necessarily seem as such when you try to get a visa.

I notice every time I read about some historical figure too. They just seem to hop in boats and end up in foreign countries willy-nilly.

But I think it's important to remember that we only read the stories of typically-wealthy, often aristocratic people who accomplished enough to have their lives remembered for hundreds of years. There's a lot of survivorship bias here. For every Kosciusko, there's a thousand 17th century people who never once left the village they were born in.

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#93

Post by jwieczorek »

6d6b73 wrote: post #91
jwieczorek wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claims like this are essentially impossible to have a reasonable historical discussion about, because they do not concern history but rather alternative history , and the two are mostly disjoint. One is concerned with facts, the other – with fantasy. And facts are more interesting and meaningful. When it comes to facts, it's worth understanding why Russia took part in the partitions of Poland ( hint : as is well-know…

Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely add it to my list . So there is no misunderstanding - I agree with everything you said, however, the problem with facts when looking at history, are that we're really don't know all of them. Just look at the situation today - every country has it's own propaganda machine, trying to spin the truth so they can present their point of view as THE facts. In 200 years the fa…

> But the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

No, it's not.

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#94

Post by 6d6b73 »

jawk wrote: post #90
6d6b73 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is complicated, I know. And I've never claimed that Alexander didn't abolish serfdom, or even that he was a bad ruler. All I'm trying to say is nobody should be surprised that his accomplishments are not part of the school curriculum as he was simply an occupier.

> he was simply an occupier That's not the history, as you just admitted yourself: he abolished serfdom and started a period of unprecedented prosperity in Polish history (when the Polish city Łódź had gone from a village to become one of the main industrial centers in the whole of Europe), among many other things. The list could go on but the point is this: you pick statements that suit your feelings and therefore a…

"I would even argue, as a separate point, that he wasn't an occupier at all, much like Donald Trump is not an occupier of Native American lands."

Alexanders policies against Poles were direct result of the January Uprising. Polish, Lithuanian, Ukrainina and Belarusian languages were banned, and many people were sent to Siberia. You're comparing this to current situation of Native Americans? That's a joke right?

I know what your trying to say, but to my point - do we have any military insurrection of Native Americans going on right now? And I know you hate speculations but if in 200 years Native Americans regain their independence, do you think they will not think about every American president as an occupier?

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#95

Post by 6d6b73 »

jwieczorek wrote: post #93
6d6b73 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely add it to my list . So there is no misunderstanding - I agree with everything you said, however, the problem with facts when looking at history, are that we're really don't know all of them. Just look at the situation today - every country has it's own propaganda machine, trying to spin the truth so they can present their point of view as THE facts. In 200 years the fa…

> But the truth usually is somewhere in the middle. No, it's not.

Yes it is.. I guess that's the end of our discussion.

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#96

Post by tathougies »

alboy wrote: post #66

What strikes me the most whenever I read about this period is how no-hassle moving between countries used to be. For some reason we think of the modern world as finally "global" and "open", but it doesn't necessarily seem as such when you try to get a visa.

I'm not sure if this comment is serious or sarcasm. Today, for those rich enough to own estates, it is very easy to move between countries, as it always has. Today, it is also much easier than in the past for those not as fortunate to move between countries. How can this be so, given the often onerous immigration requirements between countries? Well, a Polish (or any other European) peasant would have been considered part of the land (the way a house or a well is a fixture on the land it occupies), and would have had to have the permission of his local landowner to even leave the plot of land he/she is fixed to. Moreover, try finding a country who wanted more peasants. There has always been anti-migration sentiment when it came to the poor; the highly regulated, but still slow, systems we have today are a clear improvement over the past impossibility.

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#99

Post by gcbw2 »

> and I have no idea why there hasn’t been a movie made about him.

because hollywood would never tell a tale that shows the founding fathers as being pro-slavery.

Reparations is still a hot topic in the US.

Re: Thaddeus Kosciusko

#100

Post by bogomipz »

foobarian wrote: post #85
sverige wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Cyrillic alphabet is even simpler and clearer, but apparently too orthodox for Catholics.

I blame it on Methodius. He tried to get the Catholics to use the Glagolitic but in the end it didn't take and the vacuum got filled with Latin.

Wasn't it one of Methodius' students that created Cyrillic though? When and why was there a void? Maybe I am misunderstanding you comment though?
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