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Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

nytimes.com

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Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#91

Post by Apocryphon »

Balgair wrote: post #89
ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

In a lot of unions a major component is safety. Though it may not seem like safety is a big concern in tech right now, there are areas where it will be of concern. For example, Unions may be a good method to force safety concerns in self-driving cars and in IoT devices. Unions may help with health-care data and privacy. Unions may help with other forms of sensitive information like in judicial work and military work.…

And given the spate of sexual harassment and similar employee abuse stories from the past few years, it's not as if there aren't employee safety concerns in tech.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#92

Post by rexpop »

docker_up wrote: post #44

Tech unions are a way for bureaucrats to take a tax off the backs of hard working tech workers with no benefits. I am well off, have a flexible work life balance, and I enjoy my job. There is nothing that a union would bring to the table for me. If there was a union in Silicon Valley in the early 80s, we would be no where close to where we are today. Look at the stark difference between a Silicon Valley worker vs som…

[flagged]

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#93

Post by dymk »

Pfhreak wrote: post #78
dymk wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. It's not that hard. And I don't pay any dues to a union for that right. Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?

>If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want. > Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Great. Tech work happens nationwide. You could say, "I got mine in California" or you could help pull up others. I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a…

> This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want.

Does anyone, anywhere, have a list of companies that checks literally all their boxes?

> I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station.

Again, I don't think that software engineering is in a position that needs unionizing. This argument is nil to me. You're asking me to spend my income for something I don't see as a net gain.

> Do you not? Also, there are plenty of workers in tech who aren't software developers. We should be helping them get benefits as well.

You've suddenly moved the goalposts to be about something other than software engineers, which is not what we were talking about. If another profession wants to go unionize, more power to them. I don't see my profession as benefiting, hence I'm arguing against it.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#94

Post by moorhosj »

dymk wrote: post #87
moorhosj wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==Do people actually think that software engineering is going to become a job that isn't skilled, and isn't sought after?== I'm not sure why you would be so sure it wouldn't. Are the software engineers of today truly that different from the machinists of yesterday? If you believe in the free market, then it is elementary that more people will flood into these careers which will lower the wages and diminish the bargai…

If your argument about it being elementary for people to flood into the career were true, then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying? Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.

==then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying?==

These are actually two perfect examples to illustrate my point. Both industries are represented by organizations that systematically make it harder for more people to enter the profession (AMA for medicine and Bar Association for legal). They have eschewed the free market in favor of regulatory capture in order to maintain their market advantage.

==Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.==

Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#95

Post by Apocryphon »

dymk wrote: post #68
Pfhreak wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How shortsighted: "We can form a union when we're in a disadvantageous position." There's plenty of stuff that software engineers could want to improve today around oncall, long hours, IP restrictions, non-competes, pay transparency, parental leave, equity, promotion and career management, educational benefits, age/gender/racial/etc discrimination, health care, etc. When we're in a position of power is a great time f…

If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. It's not that hard. And I don't pay any dues to a union for that right. Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?

> Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?

Sometimes management sure loves to treat it that way:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20309052

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#96

Post by dsfyu404ed »

vcarl wrote: post #79
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your only reliable way to get a pay bump is switching jobs adopting any system that ties pay to tenure seems awfully synonymous with pulling up the ladder behind one's self.

Not sure where "tying pay to tenure" came up, unless that's how you view what unions do? A union just means a group of employees negotiating as a unit, what changes they ask for isn't dictated in advance.

>Not sure where "tying pay to tenure" came up,

This is how basically every union workplace in the US works. The pay-scale becomes very rigid. Why would tech be different?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#97

Post by dymk »

moorhosj wrote: post #94
dymk wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your argument about it being elementary for people to flood into the career were true, then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying? Software is hard, humans have a hard time doing hard things, that's why we get paid more.

==then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying?== These are actually two perfect examples to illustrate my point. Both industries are represented by organizations that systematically make it harder for more people to enter the profession (AMA for medicine and Bar Association for legal). They have eschewed the free market in favor of regulatory capture…

== Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago. ==

...and automotive and aerospace engineers are still paid quite well.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#98

Post by saltminer »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #51
ahelwer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that unions exist only to get a larger slice of the static profits pie is, itself, a zero-sum view :) When employees feel represented and empowered, when we have real ownership in the company - not just a few thousand $ in stock grants while billions are spent on dividends/stock buybacks, but an actual seat at the table where decision are made - then we want the company to succeed. We will work harder and be…

I agree with you 100%. But to be unbiased I must also mention that it does leave room for some slackers who can take advantage of the system.

Slackers exist whether there is a union or not. Whether it's an overburdened manager ignoring an employee, a nepotism hire, or an employee who gets lost in the payroll system and becomes their own manager, corporate waste is a very real thing.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#99

Post by rolltiide »

jjeaff wrote: post #55
rolltiide wrote: post #3

> “Associating unions with blue-collar work and making it a stigma to talk about unions in white-collar circles, that’s very deliberate” This is my observation too, right now there is simply a correlation that doesn't have to be. It doesn't matter that you get paid a comfortable amount, and that another startup delivers snacks all day, and another startup delivers catered food to you: you aren't getting paid what you…

I think that's not the only factor. Unions will also cap wages for the highest earners. And everyone thinks they are going to end up in that 1 percenter salary.

> Unions will also cap wages for the highest earners.

its okay if the average moves up, and transparency increases on stock options and the liquidity preferences of preferred shareholders. this is only currently relevant to non-public companies, and this article was about startups so thats fitting

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#100

Post by Apocryphon »

dymk wrote: post #97
moorhosj wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==then why have far older and desirable professions like law and medicine continued to be incredibly well paying?== These are actually two perfect examples to illustrate my point. Both industries are represented by organizations that systematically make it harder for more people to enter the profession (AMA for medicine and Bar Association for legal). They have eschewed the free market in favor of regulatory capture…

== Same could have been said of building cars and planes 50 years ago. == ...and automotive and aerospace engineers are still paid quite well.

Looks like they've got a union:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Professional_Engine...

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