Is this Paypal experience customary? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#91

Post by tomp » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:21 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #39

pjc50 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On call centers, I will keep pointing people at: http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2012/01/21/the-politics-of-... > Inappropriate automation and human/machine confusion bedevil call centres. If you could solve your problem by filling in a web form, you probably would have done. The fact you’re in the queue is evidence that your request is complicated, that something has gone wrong, or generally that human intervention…

Call centers, warehouses, and distribution centers; all places where people seem to be required yet their creativity and input isn't. For a large part, we treat them like they're just meat robots. I remember the first time I saw the computer-controlled voice-directing picking. You wear the headset. The computer tells you what to do. I see this way of working eating up more and more workers. One economist put it this…

There's a lot more jobs like this... Bank teller, fast food server, garbage collector, store clerk...

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#92

Post by stakhanov » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:23 PM UTC

voidwtf wrote: post #10

voidwtf wrote: post #7

PayPal manipulating, removing, or holding hostage the balance of your account? Yes that’s normal for PayPal. Getting a the runaround about how and why it happened? Yep, that’s expected too. Actually getting a non-form letter response of any type? That’s just lucky. We couldn’t get an account rep on the phone for almost 4 days when ~35k was suddenly deducted from the account. Nor when they accidentally cancelled all o…

P.s. never ever link any account with shared funds to PayPal. Business or otherwise, open a completely separate account for PayPal if you must use it. Imagine having PayPal place a hold on the funds in your account to make sure refunds/fraud can be handled. Then when a customer does request a refund you’re literally unable to process the refund because it won’t take it from the funds you just received that are held.…

Actually that doesn't even work. When they don't have a payment method on file that they can abuse, they'll be happy to send your PayPal account into overdraft and start threatening legal action to bully you into settling the balance.

Really the only thing to do, as soon as you see a "pay with paypal" screen is to go away screaming.

Here's the anecdote: I had had a company with a bank account and PayPal account, then dissolved the company and closed the bank account. Months after that, a former supplier of the now nonexistent company who had PayPal authorization deducted funds fraudulently from the PayPal account, claiming they had rendered services that were never rendered to a company that obviously and provably no longer existed.

PayPal sent the account into overdraft. When they couldn't deduct payment from the bank account that no longer existed, they started sending threatening communications to get me to settle the balance. I took things up with their fraud unit to get the transaction cancelled. Their fraud unit dismissed my case without looking into any particulars regarding the services that the vendor didn't render or the company that should have received services that no longer existed. To them the only thing that mattered was that, years ago, I was, in actual fact, stupid enough to click on "Pay with PayPal", the ramifications being that vendors are entirely within their right to use PayPal as an instrument of fraud and legal intimidation against me. It's your own damn fault, sir, for being so stupid and using PayPal.

Knowing that taking the legal route would have been way more costly than the amount of the transaction, and wanting to sleep soundly again against the backdrop of PayPal sending threatening communications, I wired money from my personal account to settle the balance and jumped through a shitload more hoops to make sure the PayPal account was properly closed and couldn't come to haunt me again in the future.

I think that's how they get away with it: Since the transactions they handle tend to be small, no one will take legal action.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#93

Post by m-p-3 » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:23 PM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #65

kalleboo wrote: post #9

No, most people would not be this agitated about a mistaken transaction being silently refunded. At best they'd probably assume the notification went to spam or something and went on with their day My bank doesn't notify me about any transactions, I have to check my bank book manually. Once a mistaken transaction showed up and disappeared a few hours later, with no trace left behind at all. I just assumed it was a mi…

Id be pissed if a bank silently refunded money from my bank account without my say so, if money enters my account I want some input in it leaving. I suppose the key is if Paypal put it in the wrong account then cleared up after themselves, I don't think that's a refund as such, you should be telling the account holder when they ask though. The other option is the payer paid money to the wrong account, in that situati…

I don't even have to have my say, but I sure as hell would want to be notified with an explanation (ie: refunded customer, money sent to incorrect account)

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#94

Post by m-p-3 » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:25 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #89

tannhaeuser wrote: post #44

Is it too much to ask for regulations for payment transactions to step in, at least in EU? I know we're not too regulation-friendly here, and I haven't made up my mind yet, but I tend to think it's only consequential that digital payment transactions are considered a field where governments should exercise authority, on similar grounds that give (or doesn't give) government authority over establishing a currency in t…

Given the expansion of "Faster Payments" and "open banking" (banks must support APIs!), I wouldn't be surprised to see the EU try to mandate a bank-to-bank ""federated"" payment system. Norway already has Vipps everywhere, although that's more like Venmo than Paypal.

We have Interac[1] in Canada and it works quite well.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#95

Post by sunderw » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:25 PM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #74

davnicwil wrote: post #64

I rarely use Paypal, but was forced to use it recently for something with no other payment option. Whilst there I decided to change my password, and was horrified to find that they limit passwords to 20 characters. It got me thinking about the standard assumption that any system limiting chars in a password must be storing passwords in plaintext and not hashing them, else there would be no logical reason to do so (si…

They've very slowly been getting better at various ridiculous UI issues. For example, they finally have a proper TOTP system (rather than their old security key that nobody used). But yes 20 character password is infuriating. My guess is that, at some point, it's extremely hard to change the password character limit and make sure it's correctly updated everywhere at once. Passwords are used in several places and they…

Your explanation seems very likely.

My supermarket has different websites (for their card or online shopping), and one has a X-characters limit while the other does not. It has been a BIG hassle to get rid of all the problems I had (and still occassionnaly have some trouble).

So while having a password character limit makes customers angry, it is better than breaking everything.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#96

Post by alkonaut » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:27 PM UTC

That sounds like normal procedure from a bank. If someone deposited a million to my account in error, the bank would (and should) most certainly just correct the error even if it means "decreasing the balance" on my account.

I expect them not to hide it though, i.e. I expect to see the transaction log to say "+1000 deposit -1000 correction", and I expect them to be open about the mistake IF I ask. I do not expect them to give me a call to explain what happened, however.

This is behavior I expect from any entity where I have an account with a balance, whether it's a commercial bank, PayPal, or anyone else.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#97

Post by andrewfelix » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:28 PM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #21

It’s difficult to understand why people are even using this service anymore. PayPal is not your ‘pal’ and to use them safely you need insurance and leverage all the way. The only reason I can imagine is that it works most of the time. But the times where it fails are invariably a disaster.

I use it for three different storefronts. Maybe I'm an exception, but I've never had an issue with it.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#98

Post by pteraspidomorph » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:29 PM UTC

davnicwil wrote: post #64

I rarely use Paypal, but was forced to use it recently for something with no other payment option. Whilst there I decided to change my password, and was horrified to find that they limit passwords to 20 characters. It got me thinking about the standard assumption that any system limiting chars in a password must be storing passwords in plaintext and not hashing them, else there would be no logical reason to do so (si…

I know the "logic" behind modern low password length limits for services like Paypal. Too many of their users are literally incapable of remembering their passwords and call/e-mail them bitching about how they're entering the right password and their account won't let them in and now they can't get to their money and bogus threats of legal action. So they encourage weak passwords and try to handle security on their side by flagging accounts for any reason and using 2FA. Recently they started requiring one number or special character in passwords, which puts them about 15 years behind the times when it comes to password policies.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#99

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:29 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #62

SXX wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PayPal survives because they keep end users happy, we (the people using PayPal to take payment or integrating it) aren't the end user. I have no clue where you get that idea. PayPal was freezing end-users accounts, had a bad support and very inconsistent refund limits since forever. Almost everyone I know who heavily used it had issues with it at some point in time. Yeah as long as you just use PayPal once a year t…

PayPal user since 2012, multiple monthly recurring transactions, about a dozen total transactions per month. Have cashed out bitcoin multiple times through Coinbase. Never had a problem. Far less issues than I’ve had with my bank actually (random declines, locked out of my account due to technical issue) in the same number of years.

Lucky you. Other people have had very different experiences.

These new-monopolies all seem to have the same features: robo-traps that trigger problems for users, robo-support (or support-by-script) that doesn't solve the problems, and no apparent motivation to actually solve problems when they happen.

Stronger regulation might fix some of this, but generally there should be some obligation to act ethically and responsibly.

(I know I'm dreaming, but consider how we got to the point where this requirement might as well be science fiction instead of a realistic consumer expectation.)

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#100

Post by brownbat » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 12:29 PM UTC

A bit like chargeback without any consultation.

Planet Money just had a story from the other side, one of the producers made a payment on another service in error, and tried to get it refunded.[0]

[0] https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/736352315/episode-922-the-cos...

You could read one of these stories and come away passionately more pro or more against chargebacks, but the real solution for both situations is just more transparency and communication.

In SG's case, if they're right that the money ended up at the right place, fine, just let everyone involved know what happened, how PP came to that conclusion, and what options there would be for the parties to appeal in the case of fraud or mistake. It sounds like in the PM story that that approach would have resolved everything faster there too.

Transparency isn't going to kill you in this situation. You may be worried about privacy risks, but just make a clear policy as to what you can and can't say during the initial phases of disputes.

Transparency will resolve the easy cases, but there are real dilemmas here between buyer and seller rights. I feel like some of the tech that is taking over the roles of payment systems are just pretending these dilemmas don't actually exist. eBay definitely stumbled through buyer vs seller rights for a while, maybe still doesn't have it right.

Cryptocurrency is an interesting spin. In some ways its stance is that chargebacks are so anathema that they will design them completely out of consideration.