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Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

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Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#91

Post by koenigdavidmj »

pishpash wrote: post #78
koenigdavidmj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that this is legitimate, but a strategy like the Republicans used in Northern Ireland. Everyone knows that your little city can't defeat the PLA. What you can do is make yourself ungovernable without making China do things that would tarnish their world reputation. If China quells this protest, but in the process turns Hong Kong into another Xinjiang (including the "reeducation" camps for protesters, and…

And this is good for Hong Kong how? People need to get over the reality that One Country Two Systems was meant to be a transition, not a permanent condition. Legally. The most legitimate path that is not tinged with racism or colonialism is to use that time to make sure China becomes a prosperous and free country that everybody wants to live in, as it should be.

The point is that China has external pressure not to do that.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#92

Post by hker »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #2

You might almost think it was intended to provoke a reaction. So much so it smells like a false flag op. They were left pretty much alone for about 12 hours, while they broke windows and shutters, since the first reports of broken windows came last night. To justify the "entirely necessary but unavoidable" reaction coming soon?

This is not a false flag op.

Disclosure: I closely followed the forum where many of the high level discussions take place: lihkg.com (in Cantonese).

The protestors broke into the legislative council, partly in response to the no-response from the government after the large protests on 9 June, 12 June, and 16 June; and partly because of some recent desperate suicides towards no-response from the government (just two cases on 30 June, the day before 1 July).

There were lots of push back for breaking the windows even among the protestors, but eventually they did it just to enter the building. The protestors did not go further to break things: they left money for drinks in the fridge, and labeled artifacts for protection (in Cantonese [1]), so they remained civil except for breaking into the building.

They made a declaration [2] before they left and the police took over.

[1]: https://www.facebook.com/hksidestories/posts/245385840131281...

[2]: https://lihkg.com/thread/1274850/page/1

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#93

Post by dmix »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #14
dmix wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time the HK police used force there was a massive backlash and the police were angry the government put them in that position to take the brunt of the people's anger. There are very good non-conspiratorial reasons for the police to take their time, this time around. Plus there's always a subset of protestors who just want to destroy property and take a more aggressive stance (usually the younger ones), regar…

The last time police used force they used tear gas and rubber bullets, without warning, against an entirely peaceful demonstration. Like nkoren said previous demonstrations have been extra careful to consistently keep it peaceful. This time they wait until the protest has effectively finished trashing the legislature, then go in with tear gas and have a big sign stuck on riot shields of "WARNING: TEAR SMOKE". Both po…

Sure there’s will always be people that are suspicious which is a good thing. More eyes watching. But doesn’t mean it’s true or more plausible than alternative theories.

The evidence you presented could be spun either way.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#94

Post by Tijdreiziger »

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #68
nkoren wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False flag op was my instant reaction as well. The original protestors were fastidious in their civic-mindedness. These are not them. These protestors are producing made-to-order photos for the Chinese press. When China steps in to "restore order", this will be why.

My guess is that this is legitimate, but a strategy like the Republicans used in Northern Ireland. Everyone knows that your little city can't defeat the PLA. What you can do is make yourself ungovernable without making China do things that would tarnish their world reputation. If China quells this protest, but in the process turns Hong Kong into another Xinjiang (including the "reeducation" camps for protesters, and…

Since the world already turned a blind eye to Xinjiang, what makes you believe they won't turn a blind eye to Hong Kong?

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#95

Post by Tijdreiziger »

ggggtez wrote: post #13
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #2

You might almost think it was intended to provoke a reaction. So much so it smells like a false flag op. They were left pretty much alone for about 12 hours, while they broke windows and shutters, since the first reports of broken windows came last night. To justify the "entirely necessary but unavoidable" reaction coming soon?

Not sure what part you think is a false flag. Hong Kong has a history of protests against China. That would basically have been HK government admitting that Chinese law supersedes HK law. Could you imagine the UK passing a law that Brussels has jurisdiction over UK citizens? The brexiters would go absolutely nuts. HK has a history of resisting Chinese attempts to impose One China on them.

> Could you imagine the UK passing a law that Brussels has jurisdiction over UK citizens?

This is already the case, right? Per Wikipedia:

"A regulation is a legal act of the European Union that becomes immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously."

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#96

Post by Ill_ban_myself »

loyukfai wrote: post #15
dmix wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time the HK police used force there was a massive backlash and the police were angry the government put them in that position to take the brunt of the people's anger. There are very good non-conspiratorial reasons for the police to take their time, this time around. Plus there's always a subset of protestors who just want to destroy property and take a more aggressive stance (usually the younger ones), regar…

Besides wanting to destroy property and take a more aggressive stance, there is a prevalent atmosphere of doomsday feeling among the protesting youth. 3 suicides over the last few days can be associated to the current unrest. I wouldn't say it's all the government's fault but it cannot be overlooked either. They are desperate, while whether the current realities warrant that feeling is debatable, one cannot deny its…

God bless the grass that grows through cement. It's green and it's tender and it's easily bent. But after a while it lifts up its head, For the grass is living and the stone is dead

God bless the grass that's gentle and low, Its roots they are deep and its will is to grow. And God bless the truth, the friend of the poor, And the wild grass growing at the poor man's door.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#97

Post by slaymaker1907 »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #94
koenigdavidmj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that this is legitimate, but a strategy like the Republicans used in Northern Ireland. Everyone knows that your little city can't defeat the PLA. What you can do is make yourself ungovernable without making China do things that would tarnish their world reputation. If China quells this protest, but in the process turns Hong Kong into another Xinjiang (including the "reeducation" camps for protesters, and…

Since the world already turned a blind eye to Xinjiang, what makes you believe they won't turn a blind eye to Hong Kong?

Xinjiang isn’t a major finance hub.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#98

Post by vasili111 »

hospes wrote: post #88
vasili111 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand why that message was down voted. Tatars are really the oldest owner of Crimea and they do not support Russia. They remember many bad from Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat... And now too nobody asked them if they want to be part of Russia or not. Crimea is occupated and this is reality. All other talks about how much Crimea is more Russian sounds like a Russian p…

>> Tatars are really the oldest owner of Crimea and they do not support Russia... Tatars are not the oldest owner of Crimea. 2500 years ago Crimea was a Greek colony, then it was part of a Persian Empire, then Roman Empire, then Byzantine Empire [1] Mongols conquered Crimea only in 13th century. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Ancient_history

Oldest that are living in that territory. No people from Persian Empire, then Roman Empire, then Byzantine Empire and Mongols at the moment living in Crimea.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#99

Post by vasili111 »

filoleg wrote: post #87
vasili111 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand why that message was down voted. Tatars are really the oldest owner of Crimea and they do not support Russia. They remember many bad from Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat... And now too nobody asked them if they want to be part of Russia or not. Crimea is occupated and this is reality. All other talks about how much Crimea is more Russian sounds like a Russian p…

Semi-related (not trying to detract from your point): interestingly enough, there is a whole Tatar state within Russia that many people might not be aware of ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan ). >Crimea is occupated and this is reality. All other talks about how much Crimea is more Russian sounds like a Russian propaganda. While I am very opposed to the capture of Crimea by RF, I feel you are being disingenuo…

>Semi-related (not trying to detract from your point): interestingly enough, there is a whole Tatar state within Russia that many people might not be aware of (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan).

Tatars from Tatarstan and Tatars from Crimea share only name, they are different nationalities.

>While I am very opposed to the capture of Crimea by RF, I feel you are being disingenuous when you say that. According to the latest census, russians make up 67.9% of Crimean population, while tatars make up just 12.6% [1]. Those numbers seem to support the point that Crimea is indeed majority russian, with tatars being outnumbered by almost a factor of 6.

This logic is totally misleading. If there are more Russians it does not make Crimea Russian.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#100

Post by vasili111 »

bitcurious wrote: post #83
vasili111 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand why that message was down voted. Tatars are really the oldest owner of Crimea and they do not support Russia. They remember many bad from Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat... And now too nobody asked them if they want to be part of Russia or not. Crimea is occupated and this is reality. All other talks about how much Crimea is more Russian sounds like a Russian p…

The Greeks were around a for a millenia prior to the tatars, the majority were resettled to modern day Ukraine under the Russian Empire.

>The Greeks were around a for a millenia prior to the tatars, the majority were resettled to modern day Ukraine under the Russian Empire. Oldest that are living in that territory. No Greeks at the moment at Crimea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea#Ethnici...
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