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US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

theguardian.com

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Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#91

Post by moorhosj »

mc32 wrote: post #6

I wish people would just focus on the part that regards journalism, free press, free speech, sources and releasing leaked information. All the rest will fall along political lines. Liked or disliked for the effects on political allies and foes. It’s obvious if you have followed this case. Three years ago the right loathed him, today they love him and conversely today the left loathes him but 3 years ago they loved hi…

==Three years ago the right loathed him, today they love him and conversely today the left loathes him but 3 years ago they loved him.==

Not necessarily true according to this poll [1]. The alt-right might love him, but rank-and-file Republicans don't seem to:

"A new YouGov poll of 2,455 Americans shows that a majority (53%) say Assange should be extradited to America. That majority increases among both Republicans (59% supporting extradition) and Democrats (62% supporting extradition), but decreases to a plurality (46%) among Independents."

[1] https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#92

Post by throwaway100773 »

levelist_com wrote: post #75
chippy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good that we should think that journalists should be non partisan and just report on the facts. The reality appears that almost all of the media outlets are partisan and that journalists appear to be biased. Would it be better if we spread the idea that no journalism is impartial and spread facts of such bias and influence where we encounter them or would it be better to put our effort into (what I assume is the…

When you encourage others to steal classified information and then publish it without regard to the harm it may cause others, you are not a journalist, you are a criminal. When you go on to publish stolen information about one Presidential candidate, in a foreign election no less, and not the other you are no longer a journalist - not that he ever was, you are a tool. Im not making an argument about whether or not th…

Your statement makes no sense. There is a lot of information that ought to be exposed, is classified and will cause harm to some people. Exposing secrets almost necessarily will cause harm to somebody.

Furthermore you refuse to allow assange to be classified as a journalist on that basis, which is exactly what Glenn greenwald did. So I suppose you would disqualify Glenn greenwald as a journalist as well? If not you’re wildly inconsistent.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#93

Post by levelist_com »

Miner49er wrote: post #86
levelist_com wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually we have extradition treaties/agreements with many countries so yes if an American were to break the law of another country that country could in fact ask to have that person arrested and extradited.

We do, but isn't that typically when the law was originally broken in the country they are to be extradited to? Not overseas? I'm also aware this isn't the first time the U.S. has done this sort of thing, but it's still very authoritarian.

So... let me get this straight. Youre alright with a foreign national stealing or encouraging the theft of classified US intel and publishing as long as it didnt happen on US soil? Further, youre alright with Americans being exposed and/or killed b/c of it? Because, you know, though it was a crime against the US, it was perpetrated by a foreign national of foreign soil?

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#94

Post by cyphar »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #90
cyphar wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the only good journalism done by The Intercept is by Glenn Greenwald. As for the rest of your comment, the general thrust of the page is accurate -- it is incredibly well-known that the Guardian has had a bone to pick with Julian Assange for years. Pretending that is not the case is an example of being intentionally misleading or deciding to ignore facts which disagree with your views.

I'm not picking on Greenwald, to be clear. I also didn't say that they were inaccurate about their pointing out of the Guardian's treatment of Assange. I'd argue that the Guardian never hid it. Also, that media literacy matters and you shouldn't treat every outlet as a single voice. It's terribly inaccurate and, I'd say, in bad faith to do so—as long as said outlet has a general track record for accuracy. Or, even mo…

Editors have a lot of control over what is (and is not) published by a newspaper, so "the Guardian has a bone to pick with Julian Assange" could be translated to "the Guardian's editors have a bone to pick with Julian Assange". In addition, accuracy is not the only factor -- tone and angle are also incredibly important because they shape the conversation on a topic. And the tone of an article is definitely shaped by editors.

If there is a consistent record by a newspaper of negative (or in some cases outright false) articles about someone, I think it's fair to say that they have a bias against that person. I'm sure you'd agree with me the Fox News has a strong bias against AOC and Ilhan Omar -- it is sometimes reasonable to make a generalisation like that if the general trend is in a particular direction.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#96

Post by haberman »

moorhosj wrote: post #91
mc32 wrote: post #6

I wish people would just focus on the part that regards journalism, free press, free speech, sources and releasing leaked information. All the rest will fall along political lines. Liked or disliked for the effects on political allies and foes. It’s obvious if you have followed this case. Three years ago the right loathed him, today they love him and conversely today the left loathes him but 3 years ago they loved hi…

==Three years ago the right loathed him, today they love him and conversely today the left loathes him but 3 years ago they loved him.== Not necessarily true according to this poll [1]. The alt-right might love him, but rank-and-file Republicans don't seem to: "A new YouGov poll of 2,455 Americans shows that a majority (53%) say Assange should be extradited to America. That majority increases among both Republicans (…

That is fascinating. I can't think of any other opinion where Republicans and Democrats have more in common than Independents, off the top of my head.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#97

Post by chrisseaton »

cyphar wrote: post #59
chrisseaton wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a basket with soap and socks Does this have some cultural significance? It a symbolic snub of some kind? The speaker in the video says that they sent him this care package and then pauses and stares into space like it's the most obviously terrible thing they could have done and needs no further comment. I don't get it?

If you have a friend who broke their ankle and is in hospital overnight, you send a basket with soap and socks (or more likely, flowers). If you are the head of a news organisation and have a fellow journalist (who you've worked with in the past and gave you "the biggest scoop in 30 years") and is currently facing political persecution by the most powerful government on earth, you send lawyers to help him get out of…

All these activities seem wildly beyond the scope of what I’d consider journalism. Why don’t they just write about it rather than getting mixed up in it like this?

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#98

Post by k1m »

bogle wrote: post #74
k1m wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, the Guardian has been one of the most vocal papers in attacking and ridiculing Assange. We collected some of this output here https://theguardian.fivefilters.org/assange/ Especially damning now with the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture describing his treatment as psychological torture: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

"Support non-corporate media"? Are you suggesting The Guardian is a corporation? (They are a trust.) Ah, your comment history shows you are waging a vendetta.

If you believe they are a trust (they're not), you should read this https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2015-03-03/hsbc-and-the-s... and this https://expressiveegg.org/2017/02/07/guardian-bothering/

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#99

Post by Miner49er »

levelist_com wrote: post #93
Miner49er wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do, but isn't that typically when the law was originally broken in the country they are to be extradited to? Not overseas? I'm also aware this isn't the first time the U.S. has done this sort of thing, but it's still very authoritarian.

So... let me get this straight. Youre alright with a foreign national stealing or encouraging the theft of classified US intel and publishing as long as it didnt happen on US soil? Further, youre alright with Americans being exposed and/or killed b/c of it? Because, you know, though it was a crime against the US, it was perpetrated by a foreign national of foreign soil?

That's beside the point. I don't think the person in that example should face charges in the U.S., no. (But maybe they should in their own country, and obviously any murderers should be brought to trial in their own country)

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#100

Post by cyphar »

duxup wrote: post #67

I don't really buy it. The crime he was accused of by the US is helping someone try to break into a laptop. That's beyond most journalistic standards for conduct and a criminal act. We'll see what can be proved in court from here.

He is also being accused of 17 counts of breaching the Espionage Act with a maximum sentence of several lifetimes in prison. The conspiracy to break the CFAA charge was just the taster -- and I would argue that it was done tactically so that the discussion of Julian would be "he's a hacker not a journalist". If I was working for the DoJ that's without question what I would've done -- whether the accusations were true or not.

We live in a society based on the presumption of innocence. Just because the US government says something (which happens to be incredibly helpful for their narrative) does not make it true.

Also, he wasn't accused of trying to break into a laptop. He was accused of allegedly offering to help Chelsea Manning crack a password hash (which he never did). Aside from the fact that johntheripper is free software and is so trivial to use that teenagers know about it (making the entire story seem suspect on its face) it completely ignores that this is ridiculously minor compared to the Espionage Act indictments.

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