US demands social media details from visa applicants • Hacker News Board

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#91

Post by diveanon » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #85

diveanon wrote: post #13

I meet a lot of tourists on a daily basis, and I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time. I can't imagine how much worse it is for people that are forced to travel there for business. If the United States is trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world it is definitely succeeding. As a side note, I have not spoken to a tourist from the US on the island where I live in…

Have you seen how many vacation days most americans get? It’s not a lot and most of it goes towards visiting family around the major holidays.

I honestly think that is one of the primary factors.

That and how health care is tied to employment.

When Europeans change jobs they tend to go on vacation for a while, Americans immediately scramble for a new job out of fear of getting sick.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#92

Post by Swizec » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:43 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #80

This seems isolationist. Why would we want to isolate ourselves? For a country that was founded upon immigrants, that extremely benefited (and continues to) from diversity of thought and ideas, why would we want to stop that? I'm just under 30 and I still remember growing up how I was told that a major part of what made America great was the melting pot. In academia and at labs I've seen this be a huge benefit. But I…

> So I have to imagine that there's something, at least in western culture, that is changing.

Inequality, wage stagnation, slowing growth, things like that. When life gets tough, us vs them rhetoric and isolationism starts going up.

It’s pretty predictable when you look at history. First the economy has a few bumps, then the lower classes start clamoring for reform, then the various isms start taking hold of politics as people vote for anyone who promises them a better life.

Post ww2 up to the early 2000’s was a period of unprecedented growth in most of the west as we caught up to pre-war status (think 1910’s, not 1930’s). That growth has tapped out and we are now on a more natural growth trajectory.

But compared to what was before, organic growth looks slow and scary.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#93

Post by torben-friis » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:43 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #80

This seems isolationist. Why would we want to isolate ourselves? For a country that was founded upon immigrants, that extremely benefited (and continues to) from diversity of thought and ideas, why would we want to stop that? I'm just under 30 and I still remember growing up how I was told that a major part of what made America great was the melting pot. In academia and at labs I've seen this be a huge benefit. But I…

I think expanding it to Western culture is projecting a bit. Here in Europe, almost everyone I talk to considers the US a borderline hostile place to visit, let alone emigrate to...

It's true that in part we're a bit spoiled by the ease of movement inside the EU, but the general experience of entering the US (including airport security) is unwelcoming to the point of being humiliating - very different to the way the American people treats foreigners once inside, since they're generally welcoming and open. It's more of an structural/institutional problem.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#94

Post by dredmorbius » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:44 PM UTC

ycgeu wrote: post #12

keerthiko wrote: post #4

“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.” Immigrants are non-citizens are among the weakest members of American society (an outsize number of laws that impact them and zero capacity to participate in its political machinery)

Non-citizens aren't members of the nation, so the US are okay if we base morality on that random quote.

A non-citizen of decdes' residency, with family, business, social, community, and cultural interactions is not a member of the country[1]?

________________________________

Notes:

1. The US is technically not a nation-state, being a broad mix of numerous cultures. It is a state, or country, but not "nation". De facto of course, this is significantly modified.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#95

Post by jMyles » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:45 PM UTC

tagrun wrote: post #77

jMyles wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kleindienst v. Mandel does not take a stance on the matter of the reach of the Bill of Rights to foreign nationals and was instead decided on different grounds. The fact that the government can be compelled to allow US citizens to cross the border irrespective of any enumerated standards is orthogonal to the reach of the first amendment to non-citizens. These are entirely different legal matters, and the case you're…

I have 0 expertise on my own country's law, let alone US law or some specific cases in your (?) country. But that's not what Wikipedia says: "Speech rules as to deportation, on the other hand, are unclear. Lower courts are divided on the question, while the leading cases on the subject are from the Red Scare." It refers to multiple cases, not just the one you cherry picked. And it says the courts are divided, which i…

"cherry picked"? I pointed you directly to the decision that SCOTUS rendered on this matter.

And I don't understand the point you're trying to make: even the dissent acknowledged that Mandel had no first amendment protections while outside the country - this has nothing to do with citizenship.

Literally nobody - not the majority nor either dissent, said anything whatsoever about citizenship being an issue here.

If a non-citizen were not subject to the enumerated standard test here (ie, if they were a permanent resident), they'd be in the exact same boat as a citizen.

This entire line of jurisprudence has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether the Bill of Rights extends to non-citizens (and to be absolutely clear: it does.).

> "Speech rules as to deportation, on the other hand, are unclear. Lower courts are divided on the question, while the leading cases on the subject are from the Red Scare."

So let me get this straight - WikiPedia cites Eugene Volokh discussing a matter on which there has been no case or controversy and no court has rendered an opinion, and this is your basis to say that the unambiguous tradition, predating the founding, of rights being enjoyed by non-citizens within the United States is "unclear"? Please tell me that you can see how ridiculous this sounds.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#96

Post by beached_whale » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:46 PM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #93

godelski wrote: post #80

This seems isolationist. Why would we want to isolate ourselves? For a country that was founded upon immigrants, that extremely benefited (and continues to) from diversity of thought and ideas, why would we want to stop that? I'm just under 30 and I still remember growing up how I was told that a major part of what made America great was the melting pot. In academia and at labs I've seen this be a huge benefit. But I…

I think expanding it to Western culture is projecting a bit. Here in Europe, almost everyone I talk to considers the US a borderline hostile place to visit, let alone emigrate to... It's true that in part we're a bit spoiled by the ease of movement inside the EU, but the general experience of entering the US (including airport security) is unwelcoming to the point of being humiliating - very different to the way the…

I don't think it is spoiled. Definitely better than here in North America, but is isn't spoiled to be afforded basic human rights of not being treated like cargo when crossing an imaginary line.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#97

Post by godelski » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

HeavenFox wrote: post #74

As any US Visa applicant can attest to, the DS-160 is already some of the most annoying form you have to fill - in fact for most people it's less pleasurable than doing 1040. In addition to asking for details of every school you went to, every job you had, every country you've been to, they ask you questions like this: >> Have you ever violated, or engaged in a conspiracy to violate, any law relating to controlled su…

Can some lawyer explain why these questions are necessary? I understand that you can add extra convictions for lying on these applications, but all the above questions are quite damning themselves. Like

>> Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization?

Assuming you are: you answer yes and you get denied a visa (duh). Answer no and the gov doesn't know, what happens? You commit terrorist activities on American soil and get charged with that activity, which I assume is FAR worse than the punishment for lying on a Visa (if it isn't, somethings wrong). Can we not kick out a terrorist (found out after they entered) without this question?

It seems like the same goes for every single one of the above questions (except the first one, "Have you ever done drugs"). Every one of these questions is always going to be answered with a no, so doesn't that just create noise in the data?

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#98

Post by ncr100 » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:52 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #80

This seems isolationist. Why would we want to isolate ourselves? For a country that was founded upon immigrants, that extremely benefited (and continues to) from diversity of thought and ideas, why would we want to stop that? I'm just under 30 and I still remember growing up how I was told that a major part of what made America great was the melting pot. In academia and at labs I've seen this be a huge benefit. But I…

I did not vote for this change, and I will vote to restore a non-isolationist paradigm in future elections.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#99

Post by mattigames » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:53 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #89

ktpsns wrote: post #84

So what prevents me from leaving the requested fields empty or even put wrong account names on it? What if I lie about my phone number? Will they call me to check wether it rings in my pocket? Will they write me an email to check wether I recieve it?

Presumably something at the bottom you sign that says the information above is true to the best of your knowledge under penalty of perjury. Willing to risk 5 years in prison for lying?

What if I close my social media accounts just before applying, I'm telling the truth when I leave them empty right? I don't think the government thought this through.

Re: US demands social media details from visa applicants

#100

Post by jkaplowitz » Sun, Jun 02, 2019, 11:54 PM UTC

optymizer wrote: post #64

jkaplowitz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they've thought about how precise 100% compliance is literally impossible for those of us with catch-all email domains, unless we have a record of every email address at that domain we've ever given out or through which we've received unsolicited email. (Yeah, I realize that in practice they will probably accept partial compliance in that scenario, and that it won't affect me as a US citizen. But it cou…

It can be advantageous for the government to issue laws that citizens can't comply with. That way they can prove you lied because you haven't provided this one e-mail address that they were able to trace to you. Now you're a liar and they can hold that against you.

All true. This particular one has no impact on US citizens since we don't need US visas, but other overly demanding laws certainly can affect us, and even this one can affect non-citizens We care about (even ones we may count as family).