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Linux apps that run anywhere

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Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#91

Post by Annatar »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #78
Annatar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think powers the InterNet that you're connected to right now? Multiuser systems, running applications under different logins. Even the much hated systemd brought physical multiuser computing back to GNU/Linux.

Yeah, but the user accounts are at the application level not the os level. I doubt there is a top internet company around that makes a unix account for each web user. That would be an antipattern...

Search for "free shell accounts". You might be surprised.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#92

Post by Annatar »

pjmlp wrote: post #80
Annatar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is just a kernel, so every distribution is a somewhat similar yet completely different operating system. Reality is, most software targets CentOS / RHEL, OpenSUSE / SLES and Debian / Ubuntu. That's exactly two packaging formats, RPM and DPKG. Now, let's presume for the purpose of illustration that learning both of those takes 100 hours (it takes much less): to learn Chef, Puppet, Docker, Ansible and Kubernetes…

Try to install a random RPM package targeted to Red-Hat on SLES to see how far you will go.

That's again due to incompetence and not a fault of RPM. My own spec files build cleanly across both without any additional effort. It's not rocket science but insight.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#93

Post by pjmlp »

Annatar wrote: post #92
pjmlp wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to install a random RPM package targeted to Red-Hat on SLES to see how far you will go.

That's again due to incompetence and not a fault of RPM. My own spec files build cleanly across both without any additional effort. It's not rocket science but insight.

Ah, like the C based security exploits are the fault of programmer and not the lack of safety features to start with.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#94

Post by Boulth »

oblio wrote: post #62
earenndil wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent means that, for opensource software, they trust their distro maintainers to read the source code and only publish trustworthy software.

I know, but with his model a random third party decides what's best for that software. That third party has screwed the security of the package on occasion (Debian being a famous example: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/05/random_number... ), has delayed package updates for years if not decades (I don't even need to provide an example, just do a diff of stable upstream versions and your favorite distro's…

And a more recent example of maintainers just doing what they want: https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk8u-dev/2019-May/0...

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#95

Post by znpy »

Every app packaging its own shared library and runtime because someone didn't want to deal with packaging software.

I foresee someone in five years complaining about how much RAM linux on the desktop uses. And somebody else blaming it on shared libraries not actually being shared because all the "apps" load their own snowflake library. So multiple copies of glibc, multiple copies of gtk, multiple copies of everything.

RIP RAM AND WALLET.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#96

Post by pushpop »

omnimus wrote: post #77
pushpop wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I would much prefer using a package manager than manually installing packages. Using a package manager means you only have one place to look for the package (searching in a browser for software can be so error prone for inexperienced users. Not to mention more disruptive and time consuming). Using a package manager means you only have one place for upgrade installers (3rd party updaters are a plague on Wind…

I assume you install different browser than Safari. So is it frustrating that you have to install 3rd party browser? Come on homebrew is awesome. Install is easy and then you just point brew bundle to file with everything you need, go for coffe and your computer is ready.

> I assume you install different browser than Safari. So is it frustrating that you have to install 3rd party browser?

That’s not really the same because Firefox isn’t a core part of an OS and Safari is actually a pretty decent browser in its own right.

Whereas a package manager should be a core part of an OS (just as it is on any other UNIX-like OS) and OSX is, in my personal opinion, crippled without running homebrew (or similar)

> Come on homebrew is awesome. Install is easy and then you just point brew bundle to file with everything you need, go for coffe and your computer is ready.

Homebrew is ok. It’s not the best example of a package manager out there but it does it’s job well. However my point wasn’t about homebrew specifically but rather that OSX should have been built with a proper package manager from the outset. And no, the App Store doesn’t count because that’s completely inadequate in almost every department.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#97

Post by Annatar »

pjmlp wrote: post #93
Annatar wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's again due to incompetence and not a fault of RPM. My own spec files build cleanly across both without any additional effort. It's not rocket science but insight.

Ah, like the C based security exploits are the fault of programmer and not the lack of safety features to start with.

Absolutely correct. Those who do not understand the hardware on the register and machine code level should go master that first before dabbling with C.

One has to learn to walk before one attempts to run. Working on and with computers requires competence and insight; no technology can replace that nor ameliorate it.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#98

Post by Annatar »

pjmlp wrote: post #81
Annatar wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't have limited time to re-invent the wheel over and over again by inventing new programming languages, learning new frameworks and re-implementing what already exists? How many headlines here were of the "why do it inefficiently? Because I can!" type? The limited time argument is a fallacy in this context.

A language package manager works everywhere, regadless of the OS. Thankfully modern languages are mostly OS agnostic due to their rich runtimes and library eco-systems.

A language package manager is system administrator's enemy and her or his nightmare.

Now you explain to me why and how that is the case.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#99

Post by tobias3 »

flukus wrote: post #65
oblio wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With your logic, you've already lost. If you don't trust the developer of an application you already run, you're screwed in any scenario. Yours is not a realistic threat model.

Developers don't deserve that trust. It's not just threat model, developers are increasingly focusing on fast iteration and annoying users with constant and often unwanted updates, something debian saves users from, very few users care about always having the latest features and bugs or want to become beta testers. Not to mention the privacy shitshow from developers wanting telemetry or more nefarious reasons. Softwa…

If upstream isn't interested in maintaining a stable version (or more realistically doesn't have the resources), someone'll have to fork it, rename it and release it as "stable foo fork". Upstream makes calculated decisions (if you want to be charitable) w.r.t. the resources they have, the new features they want to add, stability etc. If those trade-offs are not what you want, you'll have to use different software. Same applies to e.g. the telemetry. And from experience e.g. Debian maintainers often don't look at the code of the package they publish e.g. jwz's time bomb in XScreensaver, let alone backport bugfixes to the package version from the earliest maintained upstream stable version.

Re: Linux apps that run anywhere

#100

Post by stubish »

progval wrote: post #87
stubish wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote doesn't say he liked it. The quote says it is 'just very cool'. Maybe I've dealt with too many out of context book blurbs and sound bites in my time, but a single dubious endorsement like that is worse than no endorsements.

Full quote: https://web.archive.org/web/20170914030116/https://plus.goog...

Would suggest "This is just very cool [...] works very well" to avoid people like me reading through the lines ;)
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