Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#91

Post by bena » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #28

htk wrote: post #21

I personally believe that driver's compensation is a valid discussion, but defrauding the system is not the way to do it. Uber/Lyft should just carefully identify and ban the cheaters and the lesson should spread as efficiently as the planning to cheat.

How is it fraud?

I would imagine he sees it as fraud because these are drivers who are ready and willing to drive and are waiting on fares but are not indicated on the app as so.

So when someone uses the app to find out about nearby rides, it shows no one, then it ups the rate to try and lure further drivers. Or the few drivers that are on the app currently. Then when the price is "right", all the waiting cars turn on the app at once to get the "surge" price.

These people are exploiting the rules of the system to violate the spirit of the system. The more available cars, the lower the price.

The more people find out that drivers are doing this, the more likely some form of retaliation will follow.

Either users will just start using cabs again because the price is no different or they'll do something else. Like give default bad reviews to any airport trip that they suspect of manipulating surge pricing.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#92

Post by iscrewyou » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #79

When low paid workers coordinate their efforts to increase their pay it's called an "artificial price surge" and allegations of fraud are thrown around. When highly paid executives, investors, and board members coordinate their efforts to increase their pay what does the media call it?

innovation

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#93

Post by eropple » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

htk wrote: post #21

I personally believe that driver's compensation is a valid discussion, but defrauding the system is not the way to do it. Uber/Lyft should just carefully identify and ban the cheaters and the lesson should spread as efficiently as the planning to cheat.

They're not cheating. They're on-demand service providers providing services on-demand to on-demand consumers and they're acting according to the spirit of their agreement with Lyft and Uber--"I don't want to drive for less than $X, so I won't, and I'll wait for you to offer the money I do want."

So, with that more correct understanding of the world, your post amounts to this: "I believe that driver's compensation is a valid discussion, but only on the terms of the people holding capital and the majority of the power."

It's not a good take, dude.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#94

Post by eropple » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #91

mikeash wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it fraud?

I would imagine he sees it as fraud because these are drivers who are ready and willing to drive and are waiting on fares but are not indicated on the app as so. So when someone uses the app to find out about nearby rides, it shows no one, then it ups the rate to try and lure further drivers. Or the few drivers that are on the app currently. Then when the price is "right", all the waiting cars turn on the app at once…

Drivers are not ready and willing to drive. They are ready and willing to drive for a higher rate. Lyft and Uber provide that higher rate when there is sufficient demand and insufficient supply. Working as designed, yo.

Multi-billion-dollar companies do not need you to cape up for them. Somehow, somehow, they will survive against those mendacious poor people who have found a way to represent their requirements to the company.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#95

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #89

eropple wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes an inelastic demand curve. DCA has other options, such as taxis. (edited s/elastic/inelastic - I dun goofed. Thanks, Erik!)

*inelastic Great point - they could be loosing a lot of passengers to taxis

[deleted]

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#96

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #79

When low paid workers coordinate their efforts to increase their pay it's called an "artificial price surge" and allegations of fraud are thrown around. When highly paid executives, investors, and board members coordinate their efforts to increase their pay what does the media call it?

Price fixing, predatory pricing, bid rigging, collusion.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#97

Post by codedokode » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

I don't like the word "manipulating". It is like a trade union negotiating better terms. If they do it voluntarily without intimidating the drivers then I don't see any problem. They should not feel guilty.

Also, in a Lyft's statement:

> Over 75% drive less than 10 hours a week to supplement existing jobs.

I wonder, are those 75% working part-time or full-time? It must be tiring driving 2 more hours after 9-hour working day.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#98

Post by jermaustin1 » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #60

jermaustin1 wrote: post #51

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I agree with what I'm about to say, but the drivers need to be careful, because they might run afoul of collusion. Since they are all independent contractors, they are "rivals" in the same industry, so with all of them cooperating to increase fares for their benefit (and based on my understanding of the law), they are technically colluding.

They should just form a union. Contractors can form one - they don't get all the privileges (for example, the employer isn't legally required to bargain with them, and can retaliate against strikes) but it'd probably permit this sort of short-term work stoppage.

Depends on the state, but federally, independent contractors are excluded from the right to form or participate in unions as defined by the National Labor Relations Act.

EDIT: independent contractors are excluded from the protections of their union actions.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#99

Post by dpflan » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #90

radcon wrote: post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

This is an interesting dynamic - the colluding drivers wait for Lyft/Uber to determine the surge pricing and the point-person for the drivers informs of the price increase to a target that is acceptable. Now how does the pricing affect the demand for the rides? Will a Lyft user switch to Uber if the collusion is affecting only 1 application (vice versa too)?

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#100

Post by bena » Mon, May 20, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #94

bena wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine he sees it as fraud because these are drivers who are ready and willing to drive and are waiting on fares but are not indicated on the app as so. So when someone uses the app to find out about nearby rides, it shows no one, then it ups the rate to try and lure further drivers. Or the few drivers that are on the app currently. Then when the price is "right", all the waiting cars turn on the app at once…

Drivers are not ready and willing to drive. They are ready and willing to drive for a higher rate . Lyft and Uber provide that higher rate when there is sufficient demand and insufficient supply. Working as designed, yo. Multi-billion-dollar companies do not need you to cape up for them. Somehow, somehow , they will survive against those mendacious poor people who have found a way to represent their requirements to t…

Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere.

I described things that could happen if the practice becomes too exploitative.

Also, I can see the argument that it violates the TOS for the drivers. The drivers agree to drive for the price determined by the service. They are then using exploits to manipulate that price.

If they don't want to drive for X fare, then they shouldn't be in their car.

And this is an incredibly complicated situation because there are at least three different principles involved. The driver, the company, and the passenger.

In some way, the passenger is being taken advantage of. The passenger _also_ has a contract with the company. And that part assumes that the price is determined fairly and not being manipulated by outside forces.