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China’s new ‘social credit system’

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Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#91

Post by icebraining »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #68
village-idiot wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The historical norm for credit has always been offering up possessions as collateral. You don’t need a complicated credit scoring system, or reliable enforcement mechanisms for debt & fraud, you just sell off the collateral if the customer doesn’t pay the loan. This is exactly the function that pawn shops provide in the West, although their usage has dropped significantly since the introduction of consumer credit.

That may be, but the most popular credit these days is probably mortgage loan, and I haven't heard of those being given on a collateral, at least not to regular people buying their first home. Same with consumer credit, so at this point I'm not convinced that most of the world really doesn't have (possibly lazy) credit scoring.

> the most popular credit these days is probably mortgage loan, and I haven't heard of those being given on a collateral, at least not to regular people buying their first home.

In my corner of the EU, banks require a guarantor (or even two!), plus a copy of your salary slips. And plenty of people are simply not approved.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#92

Post by raxxorrax »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #62
rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

>The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea Any systemic attempt to direct the development of culture by the government is a terrible idea. The government should reflect the people. The people should not be nudge, cajoled or forced into accepting the culture the government wants them to have. The line blurs when you actually have a democratically elected gov…

> The line blurs when you actually have a democratically elected government

evidently it is blurred to some but I would suggest that your original assertion stands. They should try to keep their nudging subtle or people will nudge back at some point. It does not matter how good the intent was meant. I think we currently see a lot of this in western democracies.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#93

Post by raxxorrax »

rayiner wrote: post #38
chasd00 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no good idea inside constant surveillance.

Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance. When you do something in public in small town USA, people see you and that information ripples through the informal social networks. Historically, institutions like churches and schools facilitated exchange of that information. Those things breakdown when you have Chinese cities with millions of people, most of whom just moved there fro…

> Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance

Not at all true. Especially in contrast to today. People actually had a lot of privacy on every possible metric.

edit: Or asked differently: What was surveilled and through which channels?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#94

Post by raxxorrax »

Millennium wrote: post #69

In a society that does not put enough pressure on people to grow up and function, it is tempting to look at this as a possible solution. Coupling it to government power, though, is an outright horror. Any social credit system needs to be run independently, by society, not by the state (not least because of people's unfortunate tendency to remember that there is a difference).

Your comment suggest you are from the first world and that your parents did not put enough pressure on you. Otherwise your reflection upon your wealth wouldn't result in this tirade.

You have been credited -13 social $$$.

Authorities have been informed. You will also need to clear your room, because your social credit indicates that it is just a bit too nice for you.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#95

Post by shaobo »

Gys wrote: post #4
lelima wrote: post #2

Does anyone have visit China and presence the social system in first person? I've heard that some people like it (Chinese co-workers), as they feel everyone acting better, but they don't live in China at the moment.

I guess they do not realise what is coming? > '...one of the ways that people can improve their own social credit score is to report on the supposed misdeeds of others.'

Does NY Post have a source/reference for this?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#96

Post by village-idiot »

icebraining wrote: post #91
TeMPOraL wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be, but the most popular credit these days is probably mortgage loan, and I haven't heard of those being given on a collateral, at least not to regular people buying their first home. Same with consumer credit, so at this point I'm not convinced that most of the world really doesn't have (possibly lazy) credit scoring.

> the most popular credit these days is probably mortgage loan, and I haven't heard of those being given on a collateral, at least not to regular people buying their first home. In my corner of the EU, banks require a guarantor (or even two!), plus a copy of your salary slips. And plenty of people are simply not approved.

Also, mortgages are implicitly backed by the home itself. In the worst case scenario the bank can claim the property back and sell it to recoup their losses.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#97

Post by village-idiot »

raxxorrax wrote: post #66
village-idiot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling. I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

That probably has other reasons beyond their culture and probably more to do with what was imposed on them. The bribing I was talking about is a phenomenon like giving tips. But that isn't the topic and not the core of the statement. Increasing social trust through surveillance is like traversing space on a bicycle. Not even that because surveillance probably has a direct massive negative effect on social trust.

What was imposed on them and when?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#98

Post by rayiner »

raxxorrax wrote: post #93
rayiner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance. When you do something in public in small town USA, people see you and that information ripples through the informal social networks. Historically, institutions like churches and schools facilitated exchange of that information. Those things breakdown when you have Chinese cities with millions of people, most of whom just moved there fro…

> Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance Not at all true. Especially in contrast to today. People actually had a lot of privacy on every possible metric. edit: Or asked differently: What was surveilled and through which channels?

People lived in small communities where other people were able to observe them. They were forced to interact with others through church and just basic market transactions (you go to the general store, you don’t order something on amazon). At harvest time everyone worked together to get everything done. The communities were small enough so that other people could detect patterns of antisocial behavior. That alone discouraged such behavior. If it didn’t, the community could apply social pressures to correct the behavior.

If you go into a restaurant in Sibley Iowa and leave your table a mess, people you know personally notice. If you do it in Manhattan, you can be shameless—the odds of someone recognizing you are remote, and even if someone does nobody sees you in public often enough to put together a pattern of behavior.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#99

Post by village-idiot »

StavrosK wrote: post #74
village-idiot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling. I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

> Greeks no longer trust each other Citation super needed here. Nobody trusts the state because it's corrupt, but that hasn't changed in centuries. The main problem Greece has is that everyone puts their own interests above the common good, from littering and double-parking to appropriating state funds.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232870/article/ekathimerini/news...

The highlight is that more than 9/10 Greeks disagreed with the statement that people could be trusted.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#100

Post by village-idiot »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #64
village-idiot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling. I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

>Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling. So? They have their culture and it works well enough for them. They might not be the richest country in Europe and they're still digging themselves out of an economic hole but there's not much else about them that's worth complaining about. It sure beats living your life under the thumb of the government.

I don’t know if I’d call the Greek system working.

And living a life distrusting everyone (9/10 Greeks think people can’t be trusted) seems exhausting and bad for your mental health. Is it better than tyranny? Sure. But that’s a false choice, tyranny or corruption.

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