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Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

glenmccallum.com

91–100 of 384 posts

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#91
I despise HackerRank and that ilk. I am a (actual) senior engineer at a FAANG in Silicon Valley and can barely do those contrived problems but am approaching my second year at one of the biggest companies in the world working on “serious” build engineering stuff and never once have had to invert a binary tree and display my results using STDOUT.

Honestly, command line Linux skills and a take home ( that does x” is far more relevant to my work than some timeboxed HackerRank contrived example.

My favorite screening tools have typically been “here is an app with failing tests, fix the failures.” I have been screened out of all manner of dinky companies from these contrived tools. A reasonable oral technical interview to ensure the candidate can communicate within the domain is far more valuable than contrived tests of solving problems unrelated to the actual job. I can learn more about a candidate asking about use cases of SOA than I can by watching them calculate prime numbers.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#92
post #15

Can someone describe what is a 'senior'? This might be controversial but I see senior title promotions being thrown around just for retention reasons, could it be possible that once you start looking for another 'senior' role at another company they have different expectations of that title? Not to mention you can obtain a 'senior' title by mastering your team's code base and who knows if that knowledge is transferab…

I've never really cared about it. I've oscillated between regular and senior positions so many times through my career that I think it's meaningless. Also, recruiters seem inclined to lie about titles, I've applied for high level roles but when the offer letter comes, the job title is regular engineer.

I recent left a level 5 of 7 job for a title level 2 of 6 and still managed a 30% pay raise. On paper, it looks like a huge step back (Consulting Data Scientist to Software Engineer), but in practice, it's actually more of a technical leadership role.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#93

>But don’t think that you can walk into another job based on market demand and the number of years on your resume. The issue is that there are a lot of programmers who have a lot of years and who consider themselves senior who have very little programming ability. If you have been with a “senior” developer who had no idea how to program but was always telling other people what to do, because he was senior, you know t…

Definitely. I've run into devs with ">10 years of experience" who's coding abilities were closer to that of new grads or 1-2 years of experience. I'm curious on how HN would filter developers like this. I've been a fan of take home exams, but I know that doesn't work for everyone.

One technique I've used for 8+ years now is an in-person programming problem. The general guidelines are:

1. It is a problem representative of the work the person will normally do in the job (we use an extract of our actual data for it) 2. We provide clear guidelines and criteria for success. 3. They are allowed to implement a solution in any language they choose, using any tools they choose (we ask everyone to bring a laptop with their preferred dev environment, but we do provide one with some common tools for them if they can't). 4. They are allowed to use Google and open-source libraries to help them with the solution (we want to see how they really solve a problem) 5. We are there to interact with them and answer domain specific questions, as well as to offer advice if they are stumbling on something to help them move forward.

I've really, really gotten a lot of good mileage out of this. The range of skills that I've encountered over the years has really surprised me. The problem is pretty straight-forward, and usually involves parsing some JSON, looking at the data, and matching disparate sets of the data together. The basic O(n^2) solution can be done in about 20 lines of code and there is some nuance to the datasets that require them to think through the problem and not what they have memorized in their head. I've had programmers with years of experience from places like LinkedIn take 20 minutes just trying to read a file in from the file system, and I've had people who are self-taught developers crank through a really good solution in the same time. I like being able to see how people are writing code, how quickly they are able to lookup information they might need, and listen to the types of questions they have when trying to solve the problem.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

So? Bias isn't illegal unless your pattern of bias lines up with a protected class.

So the law is wrong. This is the alignment problem, but for laws instead of AI. The law doesn’t perfectly match what society (to the extent that society is an entity with desires) actually wants.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#95

I reject senior software engineers all the time. I give interviews on whatever language you're most comfortable in, I'm not interested in time or space complexity, I just care about how well you can use your tools and debug. I'm continually astounded at the number of people who can't sort a list (with their language's standard library), clone an array, or do basic string manipulation. I've had a staff engineer at Goo…

This. A million times over. I lead the engineering and run the hiring and I too just turn down senior engineers left and right at times.

We run about as practical a process as I can imagine. A short take home exercise where you use your own environment and build a very small project and are free to even have a starter ready to go ahead of time to focus on the question asked.

In house we have a project you work on on our code base. Very small. Maybe ends up requiring less than 20-30 lines of code for the day. Most people who come in are always familiar with our stack.

The amount of people that just fall on their face is astonishing. Many people will be fine with Greenfield development but then have zero skills being able to deal with an existing code base with places stubbed out with //todos and the ability to pair with people on the team.

I'm convinced people are getting turned down not because of the interview process, but because they just aren't that good at the end of the day.

Yes. I do not need a bunch of code wizards, we aren't solving if p=np daily. But that doesn't mean I should accept people who can't code I'm hopes of them growing into fine developers. I can do that worth one person, but not when bringing on 8.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#96

I reject senior software engineers all the time. I give interviews on whatever language you're most comfortable in, I'm not interested in time or space complexity, I just care about how well you can use your tools and debug. I'm continually astounded at the number of people who can't sort a list (with their language's standard library), clone an array, or do basic string manipulation. I've had a staff engineer at Goo…

I've met a ton of people like this. They were all people who used to be engineers, but moved into more management centric roles. Their title was still "Senior Engineer" or something similar, but their skill set was almost entirely cat wrangling.

I had one guy get very angry with me when I asked him a programming question; he insisted that that just wasn't what a senior dev did.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#97
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I make a startup, I should be forced to hire some brilliant programmer whose personality I clash with over over a slightly less brilliant programmer who I can tell will become a fast friend just because the former has demonstrated more technological prowess?

My opinion: there's not enough information to make a rational decision between the two. Perhaps check references to determine if either candidate was able to work well in the type of environment you provide. For example - the nice person may be lazy, or the abrasive person may productive and helpful. It's been my experience that contacting the candidates references will flush that information out. Even in this age of…

Some programmers are real jerks who are always trying to prove how smart they are in competition with other people in the room, and because these are basically acting out on a neurosis if you have one of them yes an hour interview will probably at least establish some cause for concern.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#98
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I edited my top level comment for just this reason. Interpersonal communication skills are extremely important to evaluate for any position. But the person you're replying to is saying, correctly, that this isn't what people mean in practice when they bandy about the term "culture fit."

I see, yes, stereotyping based on some perceived “flaw” like accent is absolutely wrong and needs anti-bias training to remedy. It is tough though. I want people I interview for my company and team to get along with everyone, and trying to make that evaluation in a short amount of time can often result in immense bias. In the end, interviewing is fucking hard.

No question. Personally I think the first and most important step is getting everyone in our industry to admit that they have deeply internalized biases that they're not likely to be fully aware of and that they have a real effect on important decisions. Once you've acknowledged that you can start to check yourself.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#99
post #81

Data point: A friend of mine with 20+ years of experience in programming and security (she's been a code-level security analyst for the past decade plus) was asked in an interview the other day to implement a binary tree. Why the fuck is someone asking a lead-level expert with over two decades of experience a first-year CS question? Because that's the process? It's a total failure. Asking senior people to do basic th…

Why don’t learn this thing for once? It is not difficult, and everybody will benefit from doing that at least once, even the most senior and accoladed engineers.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#100

A senior developer should have a CV, maybe some hobby code, some references, a commercial product they can describe or point at. Giving them programming puzzles is a waste of time. I get that they can be useful to filter out some bad recently-graduated-from-a-bootcamp developers. The antipattern here isn't that there are puzzles. The antipattern is using some external screening service using the same process for all…

The problem is that if you don't have any screening, then you get a flood of candidates, and it takes someone's full time job to sift through them. HR needs to be well trained on what to look for, but they are often a necessary gatekeeper in my experience on the hiring side. The goal is to keep the number of qualified candidates who get filtered out at a reasonable level.

(I completely get that this is unfair. If you went to MIT and have a high GPA, you are gonna make it past the gate more often. Community college, but an excellent coder? Unfortunately you will be rejected more often by HR. It's completely unfair, but companies can't reasonably interview every candidate who submits a resume.)

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