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A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

latimes.com

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Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#91

Post by shawnz »

mieseratte wrote: post #87
shawnz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what they are saying is that those groups don't face inherent socioeconomic challenges simply due to being a part of that group, in the same way that for example black and Hispanic people do. That doesn't mean nobody else can face socioeconomic challenges.

What socioeconomic challenge, in this day and age, applies to American blacks but not American asians, whites, or any other group who are applying to university?

Are you serious? What about the fact that American black and Hispanic families are disproportionately living in ghettos due to the barriers that have been purposefully imposed on them over the last century?

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#92

Post by minkzilla »

qnsi wrote: post #21
sesteel wrote: post #15

Ethics was a required 2 credit course in my university computer science studies. It isn't some new idea, but I guess it isn't an industry standard yet. I'd agree anywhere the opportunity to do harm exists there should be clear ethical standards established.

I studied business and we also had ethics classes. But nobody really took it seriously. I think there is a strong ethos in medical industry, and think it would be good to see it in startup culture. I think this is a point of this article.

At my university every major has a specific ethics class as well as taking a general ethics class. The classes were a joke. All we talked about in Computer Science Ethics was gender/race imbalance in the field. An important issue no doubt, but when with Facebook stuff going on, creating weapons, EU privacy laws, and a bunch of other topics out there it was extremely frustrating being in the class.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#93

Post by minkzilla »

close04 wrote: post #28
zwkrt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually had the exact same thought on different lines. A software code of ethics will be toothless without a financial code of ethics. But a financial CoE is antithetical to finance's goals. Edit: to be clear that doesn't mean we shouldn't have one!

A code of ethics is backed by law at least for the most part (sometimes ethical and legal principles might even clash). And here is the biggest difference. For doctors or lawyers unethical behavior leads to losing the license to practice. There's no such thing for coding.

Do you believe there should be?

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#95

Post by mieseratte »

shawnz wrote: post #91
mieseratte wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What socioeconomic challenge, in this day and age, applies to American blacks but not American asians, whites, or any other group who are applying to university?

Are you serious? What about the fact that American black and Hispanic families are disproportionately living in ghettos due to the barriers that have been purposefully imposed on them over the last century?

You do realize that there are black people who do not live in the ghetto and whites who do, right? Being poor is not a problem exclusive to any given race.

At the same time, rural Appalachian whites have faced comparable socioeconomic exploitation. The historical mechanics of exploitation may differ, but the affect and outcome is the same.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#96

Post by Bartweiss »

Kalium wrote: post #10

I can't speak for others on this, but I do have one: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics Like medical and legal professionals, it is concerned with professional ethics. Many people would be surprised to find their personal ethics are not present.

Every single time I've seen a public call for a code of tech ethics, the call is justified by discussing professional standards, but quickly switches to calling for legal entrenchment of the author's personal ethics.

On the blogs of notable programmers, best practices for security sit next to demands for closed-shop union membership. In comments sections (like this one), avoiding malicious dark patterns comes alongside demands that no programmer work for the US military. In the news, respecting user data is paired with enormously controversial positions on censorship and encryption.

This is far from the only reason codes of tech ethics have yet to gather major attention, but I think it would suffice even if the others disappear. Professional codes like the ACM's are valuable, but attempts to popularize and enforce them are derailed by attempts to add in specific personal ethics.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#97

Post by L-boog »

Something I've been thinking about lately, which is partially related to this subject, is which tech companies (not involved in direct weapons development) are responsible for the most employee deaths?

Apple - known for their involvement in Foxconn suicides (not direct involvement however).

Amazon - known for several deaths of warehouse employees and at least one person who jumped off a corporate building.

Facebook - Their users have used the platform to commit mass shootings and suicides but I don't think they have caused the death of any of their own employees.

Google - I don't think I'd point fault at them for the Youtube shooter, but it is something to note.

Uber - they've had a few employee suicides linked to their work life

Microsoft - also linked to several suicides.

I'm sure there's a lot more and this is only something I've briefly looked at recently while working on some other things. The biggest takeaway so far, is that Amazon appears to be the leader in killing their employees.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#99

Post by elliekelly »

klagermkii wrote: post #76

I don't think you can compare the relationship of a company to customers, to that of a one-to-one relationship of a doctor or a lawyer. The company acts as a third party with very different (and often directly conflicting with the end user) aims that creates a much harder ethical situation for a developer to navigate and creates confusion as to who has the responsibility to sound the alarm. I think of something like…

> The company acts as a third party with very different (and often directly conflicting with the end user) aims that creates a much harder ethical situation for a developer to navigate and creates confusion as to who has the responsibility to sound the alarm.

This is very similar to structure I operated under as a corporate attorney at a bank but also as the Chief Information Security Officer. I owed a duty to the bank, as my "client," and also to the bank's clients, whose information I was charged with protecting. You are indeed correct that it's a difficult and uncomfortable situation to manage. I always tried to be a "zealous advocate" for the bank in all matters except those related to privacy and I'll be the first to admit that much of my zealous advocacy was indeed a net-negative for society. I did ultimately leave because of a disagreement over how to respond to (or in their case, chose to ignore) an ongoing breach of customer accounts.

All of that being said, I don't think it's an impossible ask with a bit of help from the government. I also served as the AML Officer and in that capacity I had the absolute final say on all matters related to money laundering thanks to the PATRIOT Act. The only way to override my decision would be a board vote. I never had any "disagreements" about how to handle an AML situation because my decisions were final while my decisions as CISO were merely a recommendation that management could (and did) ignore in order to save time, money, and bad PR.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#100

Post by overthemoon »

Bartweiss wrote: post #96
Kalium wrote: post #10

I can't speak for others on this, but I do have one: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics Like medical and legal professionals, it is concerned with professional ethics. Many people would be surprised to find their personal ethics are not present.

Every single time I've seen a public call for a code of tech ethics, the call is justified by discussing professional standards, but quickly switches to calling for legal entrenchment of the author's personal ethics. On the blogs of notable programmers, best practices for security sit next to demands for closed-shop union membership. In comments sections (like this one), avoiding malicious dark patterns comes alongsi…

Personal ethics vs what? What do you consider universal, and why?
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