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Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

brusselstimes.com

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Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#91

Post by artificialLimbs »

hannob wrote: post #7
crudbug wrote: post #5

I looked at some trial 5G gNB; you definitely feel nauseated if u r standing near these units. This will be a concern.

have you also tried to blind-test standing beside one that's switched off and on? Because plenty of people say they can "feel" cellphone radiation (so-called electrosensitivity), yet noone has ever been able to show this under controlled scientific conditions. As soon as they don't know if the radiation is there they stop feeling it.

I don't just feel cell phone radiation, it has a visible effect on my body. If I'm carrying a cell in my pocket or near my legs, some of the muscles (I believe it's the muscles) in my legs will begin to vibrate, as though they are having spasms. This happens very frequently when I have my mobile data turned on and the phone near my legs. When mobile data is off, it doesn't happen. I'd be happy to show anyone this effect any time. I guess I could make a video. The effect is very reproducible.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#92

Post by mrtksn »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #89
mrtksn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should choose between not relying on average voters' perception of something and democracy because democracy is a popularity contest targeting the average voters who will choose their representatives according tho their perception of wildly diverse topics where even the best one cannot be well versed on more then few of those.

That's exactly why the role of democratic representatives cannot simply be to reflect people's feelings on individual issues. Representing people is a two way street. It also means for politicians to tell people the truth and to convince them of supporting the right thing having considered all the evidence, trade-offs and shared goals. Democratic institutions have a lot of resources available to them and a lot of tim…

I don't disagree on "how it should be" but there are no mechanics to enforce anything other than popularity and you don't get popular by saying things that people don't want to hear. That's how we got our bubbles in social media anyway.

I guess if you still want to keep the democracy and have your 5G in Brussels you better convince enough Brusselians that the speed increase in networking is worth risking more cancer or that EM radiation definitely does not increase health risk.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#93

Post by laHiesh1 »

mcguire wrote: post #87
laHiesh1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm open to the possibility they're not safe if and only if the proper evidence is provided. As it stands, no peer reviewed evidence has being provided to show that there is a casual link between radio waves emitted by cellular equipment and cancer diagnosis.

"Assume safety until shown otherwise" has not always been the best option in the past. ("Assume safety and viscously attack anyone who suggests otherwise" has some advantages, though.)

I'm not proposing our default position should be to assume safety until proven otherwise. I'm proposing that if one wishes to claim something is not safe which is counter to existing scientific literature then one needs to provide the proper evidence. I'm not willing to easily discard existing literature on the basis of what someone said.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#94

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

artificialLimbs wrote: post #91
hannob wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

have you also tried to blind-test standing beside one that's switched off and on? Because plenty of people say they can "feel" cellphone radiation (so-called electrosensitivity), yet noone has ever been able to show this under controlled scientific conditions. As soon as they don't know if the radiation is there they stop feeling it.

I don't just feel cell phone radiation, it has a visible effect on my body. If I'm carrying a cell in my pocket or near my legs, some of the muscles (I believe it's the muscles) in my legs will begin to vibrate, as though they are having spasms. This happens very frequently when I have my mobile data turned on and the phone near my legs. When mobile data is off, it doesn't happen. I'd be happy to show anyone this eff…

I’m not saying I don’t beleive you; just that I don’t think anyone has ever actually repusproduced cell phone sensitivity (detection) in a controlled environment.

How would you know if it’s just in your head?

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#95

Post by wongarsu »

mcguire wrote: post #84
laHiesh1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it seems like they might be neglecting issues that are affecting their constituents health (potentially easy to fix by the sounds of it) and focusing on the current fashionable moral panic.

Trash on the streets is fairly difficult to fix, without authoritarianism or major cultural change.

In my experience a clean public space tends to stay clean even without outside input, while trash leads to more trash. Apparently people feel more guilty for making a clean place dirty than for making a dirty place a bit dirtier.

Thus a good way to fix trash on the streets is to pay people to clean it up, and after a short while you can get clean streets with a very moderate level of cleaning effort.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#96

Post by wongarsu »

chii wrote: post #36
thefounder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once 8k streaming becomes popular 5G will be a must.

> Once 8k streaming 8k on a mobile device doesn't seem all that logical imho. 720p or 1080p is already pretty good on a tiny screen.

Many people hold their phone much closer to their face than a TV or regular monitor. Screen size is irrelvant, what's important is how much of your field of vision is taken up by the screen. I would argue phones are even the device where 4k and 8k make the most sense because of how close you can get to them without effort.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#97

Post by wongarsu »

squarefoot wrote: post #47

Someone should tell politicians about how radio waves propagate and the inverse square law: the cellphone kept in their pocket, very often more than one, expose them to a lot stronger EM fields than any tower they might have nearby. Or maybe they already know that, but banning or imposing restrictions on cellphones would destroy their careers.

In the EU the technical data of any phone already include a "radiation value" that measures your radiation exposure from using the phone. So regardless of whether this is something to worry about, it's aready covered by existing legislation.

Cellpone towers are also different in that you can't choose not to expose yourself to them. In contrast you can choose not to get a mobile.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#98

Post by fauigerzigerk »

mrtksn wrote: post #92
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly why the role of democratic representatives cannot simply be to reflect people's feelings on individual issues. Representing people is a two way street. It also means for politicians to tell people the truth and to convince them of supporting the right thing having considered all the evidence, trade-offs and shared goals. Democratic institutions have a lot of resources available to them and a lot of tim…

I don't disagree on "how it should be" but there are no mechanics to enforce anything other than popularity and you don't get popular by saying things that people don't want to hear. That's how we got our bubbles in social media anyway. I guess if you still want to keep the democracy and have your 5G in Brussels you better convince enough Brusselians that the speed increase in networking is worth risking more cancer…

Representative democracy, independent institutions (courts, central banks, etc), the rule of law, the constitution, international treaties, human rights, crime/rioting/revolution, and most of all the truth are all "mechanics" that put a break on making every single issue a simple popularity contest.

But when I said that I didn't want to rely on average voters' risk percpetion, I didn't actually mean any of that. I merely meant that I don't rely on it to form my own opinion (which is definitely not subject to a popularity contest).

I don't want to convince the people of Brussels of anything. I want to know the truth about the health effects of 5G, and I hope that our democracies are not too dysfunctional to let that truth inform any regulations.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#99

Post by andybak »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #74
typon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar to the studies done on infrasound, which seems to bother residents living near wind farms. The studies show that the biggest indicator of whether you're affected by infrasound is if you're told there is infrasound being emitted...

That's not really the question though. If you have someone eat food contaminated with lead or mercury, they may not be able to taste the difference, but that doesn't mean it's harmless. The question isn't whether you can immediately sense its presence, the question is the effects of sustained exposure. And the fact that the placebo effect is a real thing doesn't really tell you that one way or the other.

Except we're specifically replying to a comment from someone claiming they could feel 5G.

Re: Radiation concerns halt Brussels 5G development, for now

#100

Post by jcims »

Symmetry wrote: post #85
jcims wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that 1.6W per kg of exposed tissue or for the whole critter (e.g. 160W for a 100kg manbeast)? I put my hand on an antenna coupling plate for one of those through the glass CB antennas, and keyed the mic. This CB transmitted at 4W. It truly felt like someone heated the tip of a dagger and stabbed the palm of my hand with it. Unbelievably painful.

The limit is that no particular gram of your flesh can be exposed to more than 1.6W/kg.

I wonder how they determine how much energy is absorbed. In my example above, CB radio operates at ~27MHz. Most folks would say that’s going to pass right through, but damn if it didn’t cook me.
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