Earlier quoted context omitted.
With absolutely no expertise in the subject, I would expect any sufficiently large land area to have no net oxygen production. It's not like oxygen levels fluctuate wildly, and it seems unlikely to have such a uniform O2 level on Earth if it's coming from just a few big producers.
Basic chemistry: the only ecosystems that can continually produce net O2 are those that permanently stash unoxidated C away (aka new fuel). This was the norm A Very Long Time Ago when plants were briefly ahead in the chemical arms race against everything that lives off decaying plant matter (and thus caused an imbalance which created the chemical energy we now use as fossil fuels). But in more recent history (e.g. an…
Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
91–98 of 98 posts
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are twenty times that many people on Earth. You would have to compactify the wood for building materials, or something similar, to properly sequester. I suggest iron seeding the equatorial pacific as cheaper and more scalable.
Americans produce a disproportionate amount of CO2 due to their lifestyle. So you don't need to plant twenty times that amount of trees to sequester manmade CO2; only 2.4x. Also, as long as you replace any trees that die with seedlings, you don't need to worry about what happens to the dead wood. This method comes out to a cost of $6.70/ton sequestered. Other methods can cost many multiples of this amount. Do you hav…
> Also, as long as you replace any trees that die with seedlings, you don't need to worry about what happens to the dead wood.
You do, though. If the wood decomposes, all the CO2 is released back to atmosphere, which puts you back at square one.
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Using it as lumber will only extend the time period when the carbon is sequestered, but won’t sequester it permanently. You need to bury it for that, and bury it deep enough so that it doesn’t decompose. More importantly, the actual lumber consumption is trivial. America consumes half of a single tree per capita annually[1]. Even if you assume that this half of a single tree gets sequestered permanently (which is not…
Why are you fixated on permanently sequestering the carbon? As soon as a tree dies, all you need to do is replace it by replanting the tree. It doesn't matter if the tree's carbon is immediately released in the atmosphere (by burning) or it happens after hundreds of years. The new tree will re-sequester the dead tree's carbon. Also, if a tree dies, it frees up space for another tree. So in effect, as long as you keep…
Because a solution that can only possibly delay the climate change by a decade or two with extreme change to global ecosystems by immense program of forestation is no solution at all. Seriously, what’s the point of doing this, if it require extreme global efforts, and will only make marginal difference? It is much more cost efficient to simply replace emissions with (also rather inefficient) solar and wind, not to mention nuclear power, instead of offsetting them by planting trees, which has no chance of having any effect other than delaying the climate change by a few decades theoretically, and a few years in practice.
The question rather is, why are you so hung up on the idea of planting trees, if it’s not going to make any difference?
> Also, if a tree dies, it frees up space for another tree. So in effect, as long as you keep those 1.2T trees growing (and replace any dead ones promptly), you will keep that carbon sequestered.
Indeed, these 1.2T live trees will sequester the carbon. I do not question that. What I question is the point of doing that if you keep emitting carbon: this will only delay the climate change by a few years, because after you use up all available space and grow these 1.2T trees to maturity, you won’t be able to capture any extra carbon: all carbon captured by the trees will be offset by the carbon emitted by decaying dead trees (or huge forest fires, which are inevitable if you don’t remove fuel from these huge foerests), unless of course you bury them.
> Feel free to do so, but you haven't provided any reason why it won't work.
No, I did, you’re just ignoring it. Again, to recapitulate: planting trees will not offset carbon dioxide emissions unless you take on extreme effort to bury these immense amounts of lumber (which would also be stupid if you keep removing more fossils from the ground and burning them). Planting trees will only delay these emissions, by the length of time that is relatively trivial compared to extreme effort necessary, and insane amounts of ecosystems destroyed. Planting 1.2T trees would destroy so many ecosystems that it would be more ecological to simply do nothing.
Planting trees to offset carbon dioxide emissions from fossils is like putting a yoghurt cup under leaking drain pipe. It will work for a while, until the cup overflows, at which point you’re back to square one. You can then replace cup and pour out water in some other drain (that is, bury the lumber), but that’s stupid, because the whole point of a drain is to pour waste water into it, and if it is leaking, you should fix the leak instead of using some silly cup-to-other-drain scheme. Similarly, planting trees will only delay the inevitable, and when the cup overflows, that is, the tree dies, you need to figure out some other way to sequester the dead tree.
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly! Not to mention that reversing desertification and deforestation need to be done anyway. The Amazon rainforest is producing 20% of the world’s oxygen. Why not focus on that, Bolsonaro? But how can we get the world to change its focus? This is the biggest contributor to CO2 pollution: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warmin...
Hm, I'd heard the Amazon consumes at least as much O2 as it produces; it's basically in equilibrium. Unfortunately I don't remember the source but it was something like Planet Earth. I found a lot of sources quoting your 20% number, but it seems like that's not net produced O2 but rather gross. I'd be interested if anyone can find a source that says either way about the net O2/CO2 of the Amazon.
And the burning of the forest is increasing a lot in Bolsonaro's government. Well, it is increasing a lot since the president DiLma was ousted.
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
A building comprised of wood does not continue to remove carbon - but if that tree continues to live it continues to remove carbon.
Yeah, but you can plant a new tree, which will sequester carbon at a much faster rate than the mature tree it replaced.
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, but you can plant a new tree, which will sequester carbon at a much faster rate than the mature tree it replaced.
yeah....but you do not need to cut down a tree to plant a new one.
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why are you fixated on permanently sequestering the carbon? As soon as a tree dies, all you need to do is replace it by replanting the tree. It doesn't matter if the tree's carbon is immediately released in the atmosphere (by burning) or it happens after hundreds of years. The new tree will re-sequester the dead tree's carbon. Also, if a tree dies, it frees up space for another tree. So in effect, as long as you keep…
> Why are you fixated on permanently sequestering the carbon? As soon as a tree dies, all you need to do is replace it by replanting the tree. It doesn't matter if the tree's carbon is immediately released in the atmosphere (by burning) or it happens after hundreds of years. The new tree will re-sequester the dead tree's carbon. Because a solution that can only possibly delay the climate change by a decade or two wit…
> Indeed, these 1.2T live trees will sequester the carbon. I do not question that.
It seems we agree that as long as these 1.2T trees are living (and any ones that die are replaced), the carbon will be sequestered. As long as humanity can keep on doing that, the delay will be... indefinite. Are we in agreement on that point?
With the leaky pipe analogy, it seems you are worried we'll run out of room to put dead trees. Indeed, burying them is a great idea, and that can be combined with Hügelkultur technique to produce better growing conditions for other plants, including... more trees.
As far as some of the other concerns you raise: the Trees.org organization can have a tree planted for $0.10 (by people who are happy to plant it and take care of it). By that measure, it seems this method is the least expensive (if we judge effort by the amount it costs) and least extreme of all. Will Trees.org be able to scale to 1.2T trees? It's hard to say. They've planted 155M trees so far, so they need to scale by a factor of ~10000x. It will certainly be hard, but it seems to be possible: we have room for them in places where trees previously grew (see the link to the study where the 1.2T number comes from). Recently, India planted 50M trees in one day; a startup has a goal to plant 500B trees by 2050 (if they have two equally-capable competitors, the 1.2T quota can be met before then).
What ecosystems will be destroyed by planting trees? Currently deforested areas? That seems hard to believe.
I view any carbon sequestration efforts to be a partial stop-gap effort until the world becomes mostly electrified and using renewable/nuclear energy. I am for all kinds of carbon sequestration efforts, but as a consumer, I would like them to be relatively inexpensive, and not have an unknown side effect. Planting trees meet both these requirements.
Re: Restoring natural forests is the best way to remove atmospheric carbon
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why are you fixated on permanently sequestering the carbon? As soon as a tree dies, all you need to do is replace it by replanting the tree. It doesn't matter if the tree's carbon is immediately released in the atmosphere (by burning) or it happens after hundreds of years. The new tree will re-sequester the dead tree's carbon. Because a solution that can only possibly delay the climate change by a decade or two wit…
> Because a solution that can only possibly delay the climate change by a decade or two with extreme change to global ecosystems by immense program of forestation is no solution at all. > Indeed, these 1.2T live trees will sequester the carbon. I do not question that. It seems we agree that as long as these 1.2T trees are living (and any ones that die are replaced), the carbon will be sequestered. As long as humanity…
Yes, as long as there’s a cup under leaking pipe, the amount of leak equivalent to the volume of the cup is sequestered. When the cup is full and starts overflowing (I.e. your trees start to die) you have to figure out where to contain the overflow. If you do nothing, it will simply spill on the floor (I.e. dying trees will decompose), which puts you back on the square one.
> With the leaky pipe analogy, it seems you are worried we'll run out of room to put dead trees. Indeed, burying them is a great idea, and that can be combined with Hügelkultur technique to produce better growing conditions for other plants, including... more trees.
Somewhat, but not quite. The real concerns is that burying trees while you keep extracting fossils is absolutely bonkers idea.
Burying trees would make sense (though not necessarily be most cost effective way to do so) in the future world where we no longer extract fossils. Then, growing trees and burying them would (extremely slowly, and at a huge ecological cost) bring us back to previous CO2 level before industrial revolution. If you keep extracting coal from the ground, however, burying trees is insanely stupid and wasteful thing to do, because it would be offsetting the fossil emissions by literally putting the fossils back into the ground. Why go through all the motions with planting trillions of trees, if you could simply not extract the fossils in the first place?
> I view any carbon sequestration efforts to be a partial stop-gap effort until the world becomes mostly electrified and using renewable/nuclear energy.
Look, if you don’t bury trees, all you do is introduce slight delay in the system. If you want to use the trees as a stop gap, then it makes much more sense to use the trees as a biomass, that is, burn them instead. That way, you’ll actually in fact be carbon-neutral.