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What comes after open source

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Re: What comes after open source

#91
The point about what is in the right spirit is important to discuss, however, there's also a lot wrong in this article. The thing that bugs me the most is misrepresenting FSF.

1. Attributes this https://fsfe.org/news/2019/news-20190326-01.en.html to the fsf. That is not the fsf, but the fsfe, which is independent from fsf.

2. I don't think that fsfe press release "supports expanding copyright".

3. "The FSF didn’t move to GitHub because GitHub is proprietary, and they see that as inconsistent with their values." Thats not correct. For starters, see https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.en.html

4. "If a company were to add a proprietary feature to an open source project, yet pays five employees to develop the open source part further, the FSF sees this as a tragedy." Wrong. First, FSF accepts donations from proprietary software companies, so it's participating in in a tragedy? FSF does not say things like: "The FSF believe because your born, you're going to use nonfree software, which is bad, so being born is a tragedy."

5. Look at what fsf and osi say about "open source" vs "free software" https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point...., https://opensource.org/faq, and neither say that permissive or copyleft being any part of the of it, so its definitely not the main thing like the article describes.

Re: What comes after open source

#93
post #9

In response to the first quote "Today’s developers have never learned about this history" I agree. I would love to see more CS history classes. I know that star schema were a thing, and hierarchical databases were a thing, but I know nothing about them. I don't know what their failings were that led to dominance of RBDMSes. I'm very curious to know how similar they were to mongo or other current schemaless databases.…

> I would love to see more CS history classes.

It would be nice to see something like that. I'm not sure it will happen.

Our human society in general - for some reason - has deemed that the history of "computation" - or however you want to put it...isn't important.

Think about how many automobile museums there are in the world - or google it, whatever. Both public and private. You probably have several where you live - especially if you live in the United States (less so in Europe, even less elsewhere).

Or museums about aircraft and aerospace - another technology that has fundamentally changed human society.

Then compare those to the number of "computer history" museums.

Despite the known fact that the computer has fundamentally changed our society in ways that are still not completely clear, and ongoing - we have done so little to preserve that history.

Software is a large part of that as well...we have systematically destroyed, or have left to "bitrot" because "proprietary software" in some back room (or worse, in an unknown location because a company went out of business, or was purchased and re-purchased, etc).

For instance - there are several Cray supercomputers out there - in private ownership and in museums - but have you ever tried to find the OS software or documentation in order to actually make one run? I'm not going to say it's impossible to find, but I wouldn't call it easy, either (a great resource for info on these old machines and software is the bitsavers archive).

We ignore this history at our peril; there are numerous cases on both the hardware and software side of things of "reinventing the wheel" because this history isn't widely known or understood. In some cases, it's not even avoidable because the information that would prevent it is either not easily or widely available - or is non-existant period! In other cases, it may be available, but it just isn't widely known about or taught.

I don't see this changing any time soon, unfortunately...

Re: What comes after open source

#94

Is it true that developers are rabidly anti-union? I feel like this may be changing. I think the discussion is very relevant to the npm layoffs.

I think I'd like a software union. Especially for fields like medical devices and those new autonomous cars. What are some of the anti-software-union arguments?

Re: What comes after open source

#95

Is it true that developers are rabidly anti-union? I feel like this may be changing. I think the discussion is very relevant to the npm layoffs.

> Is it true that developers are rabidly anti-union?

To me it seems this way; there are pros and cons to unionizing - while there hasn't been a formal discussion, obviously, developers have seemed to have selected for "no unionizing".

I recall there being a call for a union and efforts toward this back in 1998 or thereabouts; 20 years ago roughly. It died out rather rapidly. Maybe related to the dot-com implosion, I don't know.

But...something is going to need to be done. We are rapidly either heading toward needing a union, or we'll be forced to be certified and/or licensed, much in the same way actual engineers are. Maybe a combo of those things.

We are seeing software being integrated more and more into devices and machines that can and do put people into life threatening situations. Self-driving vehicles, drive-by-wire controls, and other things - while none not actually "new" - have been failing in ways that are much more public than in the past, and has caused discussion on the idea of "who is at fault".

Companies are ultimately going to want to shift the burden from them, to their employees. I'm honestly surprised it's taken this long - and the fact that it still hasn't occurred ; I'm not sure why that is.

Re: What comes after open source

#96

Open source was such a powerful movement. In 2011, I was making six figures in a major city for a huge company. Then, I got laid off and couldn't afford rent anymore, so I had to move back to my hometown in another state that same month. I had barely any savings at all due to the relocation costs I just paid to move to said city. I pulled a 5-year-old desktop computer out of storage, bought a new $50 hard drive for i…

Where is the idea that software engineers are anti-union coming from? I'd like to know.

I like the idea of a software union and would love to flesh that out. Its been well documented that the FANNG corps have been suppressing wages for several years. Software is eating the world and if we have a role in that creation we should have a larger portion of the benefits.

Re: What comes after open source

#97
post #88

I think we need to zoom out more, even. The focus on freedom is too narrow - freedom at the cost of becoming disconnected is a raw deal. What we want is power. In the desktop era, having source code gave us power, so we associated the two and demanded the former - but this obviously hasn't translated to the cloud. You can't download a Facebook profile and then re-upload it somewhere else and still be connected to all…

> We need choice, but also connection. The "distributed web/internet" is probably going to be part of the answer, but that ultimately hits up against the ISP and data transport layer. Part of that can be (in theory) worked around via free "mesh networking" - but that too runs into the ISP (well, backbone) for long-haul traffic. That could be (in theory) worked around at a country level; I could imagine very wealthy p…

The implementation of Multicasting (it's in GNUnet roadmap) can quickly make the mesh more efficient. In cities, wifi devices can start working together and manage bandwidth in a better way. Then a program can signal that, for example, 4 different wifis with GNUnet cover the same physical location. Somebody (network analyst hobbyist) could write to them and offer them to get a communal wifi that uses GNUnet superior performance while saving a lot on ISP services.

Re: What comes after open source

#98

I think we need to zoom out more, even. The focus on freedom is too narrow - freedom at the cost of becoming disconnected is a raw deal. What we want is power. In the desktop era, having source code gave us power, so we associated the two and demanded the former - but this obviously hasn't translated to the cloud. You can't download a Facebook profile and then re-upload it somewhere else and still be connected to all…

> When I want to stop using something, but I can't, that's power someone holds over me. In my case, that's Google search, GMail, and Android. What's the issue with Search? I see how Gmail and Android can lock you in, but Search? You just have to type a different address.

It's a different mechanism with the same outcome. If the scale of a solution is so immense that only one or two of the largest corporations in the world can realisitically implement it, then you've got a duopoly and all the bad power imbalances that come with it.

Which is part of why I think freedom is the wrong goal. You're free to choose between Kodos and Kang, but the ability to choose conveys no power.

Re: What comes after open source

#99
post #95

Is it true that developers are rabidly anti-union? I feel like this may be changing. I think the discussion is very relevant to the npm layoffs.

> Is it true that developers are rabidly anti-union? To me it seems this way; there are pros and cons to unionizing - while there hasn't been a formal discussion, obviously, developers have seemed to have selected for "no unionizing". I recall there being a call for a union and efforts toward this back in 1998 or thereabouts; 20 years ago roughly. It died out rather rapidly. Maybe related to the dot-com implosion, I…

If your question is "why haven't software engineers unionized?" the answer may be that the average software engineer doesn't get mad enough to start a union. haha

Re: What comes after open source

#100

I think we need to zoom out more, even. The focus on freedom is too narrow - freedom at the cost of becoming disconnected is a raw deal. What we want is power. In the desktop era, having source code gave us power, so we associated the two and demanded the former - but this obviously hasn't translated to the cloud. You can't download a Facebook profile and then re-upload it somewhere else and still be connected to all…

> The focus on freedom is too narrow

I think we need more resolution when discussing that part, too.

To me, the main difference between Free Software and Open Source camps is whose freedom they're fighting for. Free Software was always primarily about the freedom of the end users, while Open Source was about the freedom of the developer. That's why OS developers prefer permissive licenses - it's about granting themselves more power, making their lives easier. Free Software requires an ideology buy-in because if you advocate for more software being GPLed, you're making your life as a developer more difficult - you're really fighting for the freedom for your users.

Ironically, and in complete opposition to the author of the discussed article, I used to be strongly in OS camp when I first started programming. I had dreams of selling games, and dealing with GPL dependencies was annoying. But over the years, I learned to appreciate the insight of FSF and pretty much prophetic writings of Stallman, and now I find my beliefs being increasingly aligned with those of FSF. Open Source of today is a paradise for developers, but it mostly serves companies that abuse the end users.

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