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I’m only making business card sized games now

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Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#91

Post by duopixel »

jniedrauer wrote: post #72
meditate wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

> an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return. You just described mountaineering, rock climbing, skiing, running a marathon, skydiving, surfing, scuba diving, and just about every other amateur athletic pursuit.

There are clear returns there: immersion in nature, cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain, social bonding, etc.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#92

Post by pmontra »

I had 1 kB to write my games in BASIC on my Sinclair ZX18 at the beginning of the 80s. One of those games looked like that Tiny Ski in the post. I don't know how many people would have enjoyed playing it (but there weren't many great games back then for the ZX81) however I definitely enjoyed programming, playing and fixing those games.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#93

Post by WA »

dgzl wrote: post #85
jrockway wrote: post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

> The depth and complexity just isn't there That's literally what the author is saying, in the very passage you quoted. The idea of a game isn't inherently complicated, and even simple games can be most entertaining. You sound like a connoisseur of the modern PC experience, but most people in this world are not and would still like to enjoy something that's delightfully thoughtful, intriguing, and simple enough to pi…

> but most people in this world are not and would still like to enjoy something that's delightfully thoughtful, intriguing, and simple enough to pick up for a short time

Most gamers these days seem to be people who play on their smartphone. These games can be simple compared to AAA games, but they still need to be flashy and good-looking with an interesting game mechanic.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#94

Post by pushpop »

village-idiot wrote: post #81
pushpop wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arcades were a thing before home consoles. The entire premise of an arcade is to get people hooked on short tasks of intermediate reward so they keep churning their coins into the machine.

Arcades are also a fundamentally social experience, which changes the tenor significantly. No, most online games don’t count as social. They’re anonymous, faceless, and typically populated with the utter dregs of humanity willing to say the most vile thing to get attention. Genuine human interaction this is not.

> Arcades are also a fundamentally social experience, which changes the tenor significantly.

The social experience has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Carnival games and casinos are also engineered to prey on the same human responses - often transparently engineered to be addictive - yet are social environments too.

Plus the people who develop problems will often be sat on their own - hooked on the machine they're playing and oblivious to anyone around them in spite of the social setting.

> No, most online games don’t count as social. They’re anonymous, faceless, and typically populated with the utter dregs of humanity willing to say the most vile thing to get attention. Genuine human interaction this is not.

That very much depends on the game and community you meet. Some fall into the category you describe while there are others that do not.

There are plenty of inspiring stories like the following that show good communities and genuine friendships can spring from online gaming:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/disability-47064773

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#95

Post by coldtea »

jrockway wrote: post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

>I am not sure that it's fair to compare a business card game to AAA games. The depth and complexity just isn't there. It's a randomly generated ski slope that you press left or right to navigate. Fun for a few minutes? Sure. But fun for multiple sessions? Not really.

You'd be surprised. People still enjoyed playing Tetris, which has equally minimal mechanics, after decades...

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#96

Post by coldtea »

WA wrote: post #93
dgzl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The depth and complexity just isn't there That's literally what the author is saying, in the very passage you quoted. The idea of a game isn't inherently complicated, and even simple games can be most entertaining. You sound like a connoisseur of the modern PC experience, but most people in this world are not and would still like to enjoy something that's delightfully thoughtful, intriguing, and simple enough to pi…

> but most people in this world are not and would still like to enjoy something that's delightfully thoughtful, intriguing, and simple enough to pick up for a short time Most gamers these days seem to be people who play on their smartphone. These games can be simple compared to AAA games, but they still need to be flashy and good-looking with an interesting game mechanic.

>but they still need to be flashy and good-looking with an interesting game mechanic.

If they have great/addicting gameplay, they don't have to be flashy and good-looking.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#97

Post by coldtea »

skellera wrote: post #44
meditate wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

>When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here.

HN has many grown-ups, which might skew it a little from the "games all the time are great / custom game rig" demographic.

>Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull as much value as possible? Cause one is unlike the others.

In the end, their value is time wasted translated into money. It's not like even the more evolved ones make some big artistic statement with deep meaning. Even the best are at the level of a Hollywood movie (and usually closer to Michael Bay than Kubrick).

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#98

Post by coldtea »

faitswulff wrote: post #45
skellera wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

> Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games More time spent videogaming means less time spent leetcoding, raising VC, and crushing it as a 10x engineer! /s

Generally, less time for all kind of other things in life.

Game addiction is a thing (as is "tons of hours spent but not clinically addicted"). And unlike e.g. workaholism, it doesn't even result in a career to show for it.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#99

Post by coldtea »

dymk wrote: post #66
m463 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some games do have a dark side, crafted by the creators to hook into the psyche of the players. I talked to a developer of a popular free-to-play game, and he told me of many of the psychological hooks they use in their game. Exploitation of hoarding behavior, community fame for specific players, random occurrences that are carefully scripted, etc. Nowadays it's hard to find games free of ulterior motives. Ye…

Videogames have always had "money mixed in", profitable videogame studios are as old as videogames themselves, and your glasses are just rose tinted. I'm not even sure what kind of "old" game you're picturing that you think didn't have "money mixed in" - tetris? pong? goldeneye?

>I'm not even sure what kind of "old" game you're picturing that you think didn't have "money mixed in" - tetris? pong? goldeneye?

How about an old adventure game, where you were expected to pay once, enjoy the story and quizzes, and complete in X time (no "dark patterns" etc)?

And of which the creators were as passionate about the their creation and genre as you, as opposed to cynical 'let's make another addictive MMOG' or 'let's make another FarmVille' or 'let's make Angry Birds 335' studios?

Food also has "money mixed in" but you can have a honest local food joint, and you can also have a global "give them crap" chain like McDonalds. Sometimes with identical prices too.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#100

Post by vnorilo »

coldtea wrote: post #95
jrockway wrote: post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

> I am not sure that it's fair to compare a business card game to AAA games. The depth and complexity just isn't there. It's a randomly generated ski slope that you press left or right to navigate. Fun for a few minutes? Sure. But fun for multiple sessions? Not really. You'd be surprised. People still enjoyed playing Tetris, which has equally minimal mechanics, after decades...

Yes, but come up with equally good minimal mechanics like tetris or go. Once? You are a game design genius. Twice? Has anybody ever done that?
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