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Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

abc.net.au

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Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#91

Post by microcolonel »

jacques_chester wrote: post #64
microcolonel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Relative to what other citizenship?

It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.

> well-established democratic and legal systems

Given the topic at hand, this doesn't seem like a distinct strength of Australia, unless you're coming from a despotic regime or recently New Zealand.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#92

Post by AaronFriel »

chii wrote: post #70
mastazi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

I believe that is an incorrect interpretation of the law. The govt can compell an entity to assist in making encrypted information available. But the entity in question is not the individual employee, but the company who owns the product or service. If you're under the employment (i.e., not a contractor), you can't be an entity, and the employer will definitely know if they've been compelled. But I do agree the law i…

What if the entity is, say, an independent contractor, staffing agency, or consultancy that provides engineering support to Apple?

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#94

Post by Benjamin_Dobell »

chii wrote: post #70
mastazi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

I believe that is an incorrect interpretation of the law. The govt can compell an entity to assist in making encrypted information available. But the entity in question is not the individual employee, but the company who owns the product or service. If you're under the employment (i.e., not a contractor), you can't be an entity, and the employer will definitely know if they've been compelled. But I do agree the law i…

IANAL, but sadly, the law does seem to target people rather than (or in addition to) corporations.

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bi...

> 317C:

> For the purposes of this Part, the following table defines:

> (a) designated communications provider;

> (b) the eligible activitiesof a designated communications provider

> A person is a designated communications provider if...

... Actually, there's too many to list. But here are a few examples:

> - the person provides an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia

> - the person develops, supplies or updates software used, for use, or likely to be used, in connection with: (a) a listed carriage service; or (b) an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia

> - the person manufactures or supplies components for use, or likely to be used,in the manufacture of a facility for use, or likely to be used,in Australia

> - the person is a constitutional corporation who: (a) manufactures; or (b) supplies; or (c) installs; or (d) maintains; data processing devices

Note that in the last situation they specifically mention corporations, but that prior situations do not require this. The requirements listed are to be interpreted as an OR not and AND... so ah, that's fun.

So yes, we Australians can be legally required by our Government to perform corporate espionage... and almost no-one in Australia (certainly not the public at large) seems to give a f--k.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#95

Post by SimplePeople »

otachack wrote: post #59
mastazi wrote: post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

I imagine that the government would begin at the executive level and ask "who else needs to know" and then work down the list to compel individuals or teams as required.

Similar processes already exist for other legal/police requests. If this legislation is used, companies like Telstra will have dedicated teams to comply with requests.

If your new Australian Citizen hire can build back doors into your software you've got bigger issues than hiring. Though I could see real risk associated with an Australian-based team for a global company or an Australian-based supplier.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#96

Post by philliphaydon »

mastazi wrote: post #51
KorematsuFred wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this true ? There is no way I am hiring an Australian citizen then.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

So developer discusses with his boss. Developer A adds back door. Developer B then patches back door. Boss fires developer A. Developer A then uses this TAR crap to sue government for forcing him to do something and lose his job.

I can’t see the government being able to defend itself. We elect the government to serve the people and the decisions of the government are negatively impacting the people no matter which way you spin it.

My 2cents.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#97

Post by [deleted] »

philliphaydon wrote: post #96
mastazi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

So developer discusses with his boss. Developer A adds back door. Developer B then patches back door. Boss fires developer A. Developer A then uses this TAR crap to sue government for forcing him to do something and lose his job. I can’t see the government being able to defend itself. We elect the government to serve the people and the decisions of the government are negatively impacting the people no matter which wa…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#98

Post by Benjamin_Dobell »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #94
chii wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that is an incorrect interpretation of the law. The govt can compell an entity to assist in making encrypted information available. But the entity in question is not the individual employee, but the company who owns the product or service. If you're under the employment (i.e., not a contractor), you can't be an entity, and the employer will definitely know if they've been compelled. But I do agree the law i…

IANAL, but sadly, the law does seem to target people rather than (or in addition to) corporations. https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bi... > 317C: > For the purposes of this Part, the following table defines: > (a) designated communications provider; > (b) the eligible activitiesof a designated communications provider > A person is a designated communications provider if... ... Actually, there…

Oh, and it's probably worth noting that you need not even be an Australian citizen to be covered, you simply need to have users in Australia. Of course, whether Australia can enforce these laws against non-citizens is another matter.

However, this legislation was specifically put together with co-operation of all members of the five eyes, so there's a reasonable possibility of extradition. The Department of Home Affairs even made a public statement confirming as much. It seems to have since been pulled from their website, but is available at:

https://cryptome.org/2018/11/5-Eyes-Crypto.pdf

Five Eyes just wanted this legislation pushed through somewhere and targeted Australia because we:

- lack a bill of rights

- are constantly distracted by politicians backstabbing each other, and

- there's a strong 'think of the children' sentiment in Australia that can be (and has been) used to push through all sorts of egregious bills.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#100

Post by BLKNSLVR »

otachack wrote: post #59
mastazi wrote: post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

The Australian Government does not like whistleblowers: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-28/witness-k-and-bernard...

I can't stress enough the potential for harm in any attempt to bypass various laws.

The Australian Government even refused to allow independent Medical Doctors into their off-shore immigration detention centres for fear of the detention conditions being made public.

Australia did nothing to even consider trying to maybe help Julian Assange, an Australian citizen seeking protection from nation-backed harassment, way back when, and two Australian citizens were murdered by the Indonesian Government for drug trafficking (Australia negotiated prior to the event, but no negative action was taken afterwards). These are admittedly both divisive examples - with the intention to point out that it depends on the direction of political winds as to how the Australian Government will react.

Australia is a good place to live and the anecdotes above are specifically chosen as the far end of the bad scale, but if you choose a fight with any of the few specific issues the Government is paranoid about or sensitive to, you may face significant resources aimed at your incarceration.

Just make sure your ass is thrice covered if you're going to go up against it...

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