Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 121 posts

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#91

Post by allannienhuis »

logfromblammo wrote: post #77
allannienhuis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.

Because that's the literal definition of local noon. That has value in any society that values precise measurements of physical observations. A purposefully inaccurate time zone is the equivalent of changing the length of the meter to make your daily commute less distance in the winter and more distance in the summer, or to make the meterstick longer all year just so you don't have to drive as many meters every day.…

> because that's the literal definition of local noon.

Fair enough. I was (of course?) using the term to mean 12:00pm which I think is what most people think of when thinking of 'noon'.

Most people have approximately zero reasons to care about when the sun is at it's peak in the sky. Valuing precise measurements of physical observations doesn't make any difference to that in any way I'm aware of.

The sunrise and sunset times have much larger implications on our activities, so why not optimise for those times? I get that any solution won't be optimal for everyone, but it's reasonable to try to optimise for the majority of people where you can.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#92

Post by tzs »

throw0101a wrote: post #78
allannienhuis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.

> Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm Nothing wrong with wanting sunlight during after-work activities, but are there biological consequences to all of this clock fiddling? (Not arguing for/against, just spit-balling a hypothesis.)

Biologically, the optimum would probably be more time fiddling, adjusting the clocks daily so that sunrise is at the same time every day. That would sync the clocks to one of the most important environmental factors that sets circadian rhythms.

Offhand, I can't think of any biological significance to noon. Noon's charms for timekeeping are technological.

1. It is easy for everyone in a given area to agree on noon. It happens with the Sun high in the sky, as opposed to sunrise which is obscured for many be trees, hills, and buildings.

2. The interval from noon to the next noon is constant [1]. The sunrise to sunrise interval varies considerably. Make a good mechanical clock and sync it to noon, and it can run a long time without getting too far out of sync. With time based on sunrise, you'd need to adjust the clock everyday, or make the clock more complicated to have it know about the variation.

[1] well...maybe not to people with very precise clocks, but it is constant as far as the needs of most people most of the time goes.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#93

Post by pmontra »

ridgewell wrote: post #82

I recognize that this is probably an unpopular opinion but I live for the days when the sun sets at 9pm. DST really factors in quite well for night owls like myself. I'm aware there is a strong degree of detraction in terms of complicating time keeping and body clock adjustments. It makes the daylight stretch into what we conventionally consider the night. In the winter, I'm always somewhat a little sad that the sun…

I'm not particularly a night owls but sunset at 9 PM or 10 PM in June is much better than wasting sunlight when people are sleeping at 5 or 6 AM (which is my country is pretty much all of us.) I'll vote for permanent summer time if we'll have to make a choice by holding a referendum.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#94

Post by tzs »

bunderbunder wrote: post #51
qwsxyh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the UK permenant summer time would mean sunrise would be 9am during the depths of winter. That sounds like a great way to make more accidents (as everyone is now driving to work in the dark at 8am) and also make the seasonal depression worse.

Southern Britain gets just over 8 hours of sunlight in the middle of winter. Meaning you can choose between people driving to work with the sun up, or driving home from work with the sun up, but you can't have both. So I guess we'll just have to decide whether people would rather get hit by cars just after breakfast or just before dinner.

How does going to/from school work for children in Britain?

In the US, school generally school starts in the morning around the same time as or earlier than adult work time, so kids going to school are traveling at the same time as the work commute traffic.

The school day, though, is shorter than the work day so the kids come home while the adults are still at work, before the evening heavy traffic starts.

That introduces an asymmetry between the morning and evening work drives. The morning drive has a bunch of kids walking along the road. The evening drive does not.

This suggests that if you can only have one of those in daylight, it will probably be safer in the US to make that the morning one.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#95

Post by wazoox »

People vote for "summer time" because they, d'oh, prefer summer. But summer time in winter is atrocious. And there are many people getting up early, they're (mostly) called "the poor", those generally brown people who clean up your office hours before you come in, prepare food early so that you can eat at noon, collect trash, etc. I know, they don't vote and don't really count, who cares if they can't see the daylight all winter long?

Yeah, that's a cynical take on the class orientation of HN... (I don't get up at 5 and never ever reach the office before 10:30 myself).

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#96

Post by jedberg »

wazoox wrote: post #95

People vote for "summer time" because they, d'oh, prefer summer. But summer time in winter is atrocious. And there are many people getting up early, they're (mostly) called "the poor", those generally brown people who clean up your office hours before you come in, prepare food early so that you can eat at noon, collect trash, etc. I know, they don't vote and don't really count, who cares if they can't see the dayligh…

I don't think you're right that it's mostly poor people who get up early, but even if it is, they would benefit even more from permanent summer time. There would still be sunlight after they get off work, and if they started their shift at 5am, then they get a whole lot of sunlight after work, an hour more than they would otherwise.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#97

Post by jedberg »

logfromblammo wrote: post #84
mijamo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THis is actually false. School start at the same time in Spain and UK, people wake up early in Spain. One of the main reason of eating late is that it gets too hot in the beginning of the afternoon so people take a break then. Work hours can be 8-14 and then 18-21 for instance. Making solar noon 12:00 would not help anything at all. In addition, it would require rewriting all the laws regarding night work, all the wo…

Why even bother with a 24-hour clock, then? If we went to a 25-hour day, everyone could get another hour of sleep. We synchronize clocks to the sun because there is actual merit in matching the civil day to the solar day. The sun-earth relative positioning is the same for everyone on the planet. It sets a time standard without everyone having to agree on it. If someone chooses to go off the common standard, they may…

That is basically how the time zones were set. They were modified because it didn't work. We're still working on which modification is best.

With the invention of cheap, ubiquitous, artificial lighting, it makes sense to set the clock at 13h for solar noon. Most people, if having to choose, would rather get up with artificial light and then do outdoor leisure activities with natural light.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#98

Post by tzs »

It's really a simple question. How should you approximate this curve?

   ....................*****.....
   .................***.....**...
   ................*..........**.
   *.............**.............*
   .**..........*................
   ...**.....***.................
   .....*****....................
If you think it should be this, you want permanent standard time:

   ..............................
   ..............................
   ..............................
   ******************************
   ..............................
   ..............................
   ..............................
If you think it should be this, you want permanent summer time:

   ..............................
   ..............................
   ******************************
   ..............................
   ..............................
   ..............................
   ..............................
If you think it should be something like this, you want some kind of DST system:

   ..............................
   ..............................
   ****..........****************
   ..............................
   ....*********.................
   ..............................
   ..............................

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#99

Post by sixothree »

tzs wrote: post #98

It's really a simple question. How should you approximate this curve? ....................*****..... .................***.....**... ................*..........**. *.............**.............* .**..........*................ ...**.....***................. .....*****.................... If you think it should be this, you want permanent standard time: .............................. .............................. .....…

There are two curves to account - sunrise and sunset. Daylight savings attempts to flatten one of those and not the other!

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#100

Post by dezzeus »

mabbo wrote: post #55

> The European Parliament has backed a proposal to stop the obligatory one-hour clock change which extends daylight hours in summer EU-wide. > which extends daylight hours No, it doesn't. The number of daylight hours is exactly the same no matter what your clocks do. All DST does is force everyone to change their schedules so that they wake up earlier, go to work earlier, come home earlier, and go to bed earlier. It…

> When you describe it this way

Which is by far one of the most accurate description in this community.

> the entire process sounds like something that takes place in a totalitarian state run by a crazy person

It's due to the way the Universe works, it only requires a review of your early school notes about science / geography / astronomy.

DST is a way to compensate that "strange" behavior for the current definition of a "time-zone".

Is DST good ? it depends because we over-generalize the definition of a "time-zone" by taking in consideration only the longitude, but not the latitude. (and above/below certain latitudes, nothing can be done)

Is DST good for EU (or North America) ? Mostly yes if you take a closer look at the year-round daylight charts for key geographic coordinates.

Extra notes while here:

1) "EU propose to get rid of DST", its our best interest to keep it; don't let some incompetent rule such a thing because he/she doesn't really know how it works but only how it's perceived.

2) "If I have to choose, I prefer more daylight in the evening": fine, but that is out of scope from DST; it's about changing schedules. Clock should (I'd say "must") stay on their natural "time-zone" for the sake of coordination and travel.

Post reply on HN