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‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

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Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#91

Post by OldManAndTheCpp »

tstrimple wrote: post #86
jrudolph wrote: post #59

> EKS (like all AWS services) is heavily integrated with AWS IAM. As most people know, IAM is the true source of AWS lock-in This one thousand times over. Lots of companies have multi-cloud on their strategy but when it's time to actually implement it they find that the cost to adopt hyperscaler #2 is just the same or even more as they spent on integrating hyperscaler #1. While Kubernetes makes workloads portable bet…

> But for developers in big co., acquiring a public cloud account may take months and forms over forms of paperwork, getting roles put into the central corporate directory etc. I help companies re-architect their solutions for the cloud, and I've worked with companies who had a multi-month process for requesting and provisioning new "cloud servers". If it takes you just as long with just as much overhead to deploy a…

Because the services offered after getting onto the public cloud are better than the internal ones, more transparently priced, and cheaper.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#92

Post by kkarakk »

OldManAndTheCpp wrote: post #91
tstrimple wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But for developers in big co., acquiring a public cloud account may take months and forms over forms of paperwork, getting roles put into the central corporate directory etc. I help companies re-architect their solutions for the cloud, and I've worked with companies who had a multi-month process for requesting and provisioning new "cloud servers". If it takes you just as long with just as much overhead to deploy a…

Because the services offered after getting onto the public cloud are better than the internal ones, more transparently priced, and cheaper.

*if they've bothered to hire more than a cloud specialist. Most of the time the in-house talent won't have time to train in the specificities of cloud used and things with continue as earlier albeit now with cloud branding

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#93

Post by aiisjustanif »

rakoo wrote: post #48
carlsborg wrote: post #8

Inaccurate analogy. Container based compute is a very small part of the AWS ecosystem. You are missing the bigger picture. Companies are migrating to AWS for end to end managed infrastructure including directory services, databases (sql and non sql), managed ETL pipeline infrastructure, batch processes, backups, data processing and analytics at scale, high durability storage at scale, a host of mobile app services, e…

I think you're actually agreeing even more with the author. Windows has everything you need for most of the usages you would have, all of it is integrated and the out of the box experience is functional. Linux at the time was a big mess of different softwares with different guarantees of working, maintained by duct-tape bash scripts and custom configuration files. If you wanted something, you had to work to have it.

What did Windows server have for you out of the box vs a CentOS box?

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#94

Post by fimbulvetr »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #45
jpgvm wrote: post #39

In my experience AWS is the huge waste of time. I spent years on and off effectively building poor implementations of k8s to make AWS digestible to developers. If you work in "IT" rather than infrastructure for a large software company you might not have experienced this as internal IT is more static and easy to run on AWS/VMWare/whatever. For me k8s finally signals moving beyond that problem and onto more interestin…

I've hardly looked at k8s, it looked like a pain to get a docker-compose file running in it the last time I looked. I think there was a tool to translate it to something kubernetes could deal with. That said, after the last four months I've had of trying to get Route53, API Gateway, Lambdas, ECS, VPCs, Cognito, DynamoDB, S3, CloudFront, etc, etc running in CloudFormation I really can't imagine it's worse under any sl…

They're really not as bad as you've made it sound. I've been working with CF for 1.5 years, and I've done everything you've listed above (and more) with deep integrations into each other, and more. The most difficult was cognito, but that's because of their naming choices. Second most was ECS, but that's because of the time needed to flesh out and reason about everything.

There are plenty of examples on github/gitlab for most of the services you mentioned. Like most programming languages, you need to separated the wheat from the chaffe; 99% of the CF publicly available sucks. Hit me up if you need help.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#95

Post by marcinzm »

philliphaydon wrote: post #68
martingxx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what can k8s do to AWS SaaSes (e.g. RDS, SNS, etc...)? k8s has allowed us to not use RDS any more because we now host PostgreSQL inside k8s instead. It's a bit more overhead, but we're now portable and run in gcp too with the same k8s manifests and almost no porting effort. So yeah, we escaped the lock-in. And now we're not just tied to the AWS stuff and we're experimenting with cockroachdb and other products that…

Everyone keeps talking about vendor lock-in. In regards to RDS you can still export your database and move somewhere else. But we use it because we don’t want to manage the database, we don’t want to worry about availability zones and syncing the data and failing over for updates. I don’t want to setup k8s instead and configure it and maintain it. That stuff is boring for me.

The vendor lock is is not the data in RDS, it's the ops code that sets up and integrates RDS with everything else you do. K8S allows you to use the same code to setup a database, or most anything else, in any cloud host.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#96

Post by marcinzm »

paulftw wrote: post #56
cs02rm0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With k8s - you switched to it, now what? You have to buy server hardware, rent or build a room, run wires for electricity and broadband, build cooling, physical security, etc etc etc. I'm not sure that's the choice. You can run kubernetes in the cloud, can't you? e.g. EKS on Amazon.

So you also agree that there's no standoff between AWS and K8s, unlike an article titled "'AWS vs. K8s' Is the New 'Win vs Linux'" would suggest? It also talks about building a personal data center quite a few times (at least that's how I read it). K8s is likely to replace EC2, ECS, and all other unusable amazon bloat to become the default AWS API. But it's not going to damage AWS, it's going to enhance it and become…

AWS is an expensive cloud provider. If you commoditize it then then Amazon will either have to charge less (= less revenue/profits) or user will switch to cheaper cloud providers (= less aws revenue/profits). That is the point the article is making.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#97

Post by poxrud »

The strength of AWS does not come from any individual offering, but from the way the many services effortlessly tie together. Job queues, email/sms services, databases, all available under the same api. Sure I could install my own open source versions of these but I'd rather spend time writing code than worrying about security patches and updates.

For me the biggest game changer was realizing the true power of lambda, and I'm not talking about using it as an http responding webhost as most blogs describe. But as a way of reacting to events within your infrastructure. Any AWS service that can generate an event can have a lambda function associated with. Run code on file uploads, database updates, completion of backups ...the possibilities are endless.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#99

Post by ratling »

holografix wrote: post #14

Let's not forget that Google wanted/wants a piece of the IaaS/PaaS pie and AWS has a huge first mover advantage. Someone smart at Google said: "Hey we have this barely usable, rocket-science level complex, container orchestration tool. How about we make it available to everyone and make sure the message is that you can deploy anywhere? Get people to look at us as an alternative instead of AWS as the default, while us…

Borg may be rocket science but k8s is not. Especially now that they've put a couple years into the documentation and tooling.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#100

Post by jpgvm »

fimbulvetr wrote: post #94
cs02rm0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've hardly looked at k8s, it looked like a pain to get a docker-compose file running in it the last time I looked. I think there was a tool to translate it to something kubernetes could deal with. That said, after the last four months I've had of trying to get Route53, API Gateway, Lambdas, ECS, VPCs, Cognito, DynamoDB, S3, CloudFront, etc, etc running in CloudFormation I really can't imagine it's worse under any sl…

They're really not as bad as you've made it sound. I've been working with CF for 1.5 years, and I've done everything you've listed above (and more) with deep integrations into each other, and more. The most difficult was cognito, but that's because of their naming choices. Second most was ECS, but that's because of the time needed to flesh out and reason about everything. There are plenty of examples on github/gitlab…

I used it heavily for over 5 years. I know how to use it but that isn't the problem.

The problem is I can't give it directly to developers. I don't want to be constantly writing/maintaining abstraction layers over CF to make it half decent. You may as well use Terraform at that layer of abstraction because at least it frees you of some lock-in and has more sane state tracking (which too is pretty abysmal but we aren't talking about a high bar when comparing to CFN) but I digress.

You seem to be missing the point here, it's not that you can't do things with CFN, you can. The point is k8s allows me to administrate a system that puts all of the machinery behind a nice unified API that all of my developers can consume without requiring an SRE to make every change and be there to hand hold them through setting up a new service.

It may be more complex but that complexity quickly pays off with the amount of stuff now solved in a self service manner. Sure some stuff needs to get much better, there are poorly understood primitives like Service and Ingress that could do with better docs to help explain to devs when you should use one and why.

Overall things are much better than the "AWS as an abstraction" way where everyone is clamouring to use some half baked AWS garbage service rather than just doing the old tried and true thing (screw Kinesis for example).

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