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Java 12

jdk.java.net

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Re: Java 12

#91

Post by pjmlp »

_bxg1 wrote: post #27
azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Once upon a time the barrier was the existance of VMT tables and method dispatch.

GC use can be optimized in high level languages with support for value types (which are still missing in Java, though) and it is not like every game needs to be the next Fortnight.

Re: Java 12

#92

Post by darksaints »

aseipp wrote: post #72
darksaints wrote: post #10

Anybody know how the graal project ties in with all of this? Is oracle effectively developing 3 different JVMs (OpenJDK, Oracle JDK, GraalVM)? Or is there some sort of convergence plan? From what I understand, graal has made a lot of headway with language interop, as well as a handful of specific memory optimizations and native compilation, but overall is lagging in pure throughput/latency performance behind hotspot.…

Oracle JDK is just the Oracle(TM) Supported branding of OpenJDK, now. As of Java 11, there are no feature parity or real technical differences between OpenJDK or OracleJDK, just support/EOL differences from vendors. So, that's pretty simple. GraalVM is... complicated. There are a few parts to it: 1) An advanced JIT compiler, written in Java, and distributed as ordinary maven/jar packages, etc. You can use it yourself…

Thanks, this is a really useful overview, and also explains why I always seem to get so many different explanations as to what graal is.

Re: Java 12

#93

Post by ilovecaching »

StreamBright wrote: post #79
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

You know, libraries. Java as a language is pretty bad but the number of good libraries available is insane. You are not coming anywhere near with other languages with this. Also, many of the big data stack applications have Java as a primary language so the libraries are pusblished as Java libs first. As it was several times on HN people do not only chose languages they chose ecosystems.

As the world around Java advances, people need libraries for different things. The question is, of all those libraries, how many of them do I actually need, which ones are maintained, and is it worth the cost of Java. Many languages, like Go, have first class seat in cross platform cloud and containerization that is hard to beat.

Re: Java 12

#94

Post by jm4 »

ilovecaching wrote: post #71
hota_mazi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence Applets, JavaBeans, and CORBA. What a loss. > Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, That stopped being an issue years ago. OpenJDK is a thing, you know? > Java on the web is dead, I don't think you have any idea about the hundreds of millions of lines of Java that power the web as you know it today. The rest…

Java on the web is a reference to applets running in the browser. Yes, Oracle, the company that sues people for breathing the same air owning Java is an issue. Maybe I am uninformed, but you haven't made a good case that there's any truth to that.

Do you know anything about Java? I'm not trying to be insulting. Java has its problems, but your points are so far off the mark. Applets haven't been a thing for 20 years and I'm not sure they were a thing then either. Do you know people make web apps in Java and there's a ton of quality open source libraries out there?

Re: Java 12

#95

Post by abalone »

azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

How is memory efficiency? Usually faster and/or consistent GC performance comes at the cost of extra memory usage.

(This is why I'm excited for ARC / Swift on the server...)

Re: Java 12

#96

Post by willbw »

jimbokun wrote: post #62
_bxg1 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Java on the web is dead, >> I don't think you have any idea about the hundreds of millions of lines of Java that power the web as you know it today. Presumably they meant Java in the client, not the server.

"Presumably they meant Java in the client" Android?

They are talking about his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet

Which were absolutely everywhere at the turn of century.

Re: Java 12

#97

Post by ilovecaching »

_bxg1 wrote: post #27
azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Honestly, if you need real performance when writing a game, there's no reason not use the language that's most popular for your engine of choice. Mostly that's gong to be C++ with python scripting.

Re: Java 12

#98

Post by arianvanp »

stefan_ wrote: post #84
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Their lower end target is 10 ms. In a game, 16 ms is your entire time budget.

In VR your budget is 11 ms and you can't miss it or the entire frame is thrown away and you introduce a frame of latency to compensate. So for VR these kind of effects of GC are even worse.

Re: Java 12

#99

Post by samus »

java-man wrote: post #2

I wish they did not decouple JavaFX...

Yeah, that kinda makes it impossible to become a successor to Swing. But the situation actually got more sane because JavaFX can be included now as a Maven dependency, like any other framework.
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