Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

dallasnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 307 posts

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#91

Post by dpwm »

ehsankia wrote: post #64
tuna-piano wrote: post #30

Some context: 1. There have been 865 737 related ASRS reports since 1/1/2018 2. I don't know how to quickly separate out 737-MAX reports from the non 737-MAX reports, as the ASRS database doesn't include 737-MAX as an airplane type! From scanning, I can say that there are more than five MAX related reports, though. [1] All 865 737 reports since 1/1/2018 CSV - http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=5466867979406…

It would be ironic if the lack of 737-MAX category for reports is why these reports never made it to the people who needed to see them, which caused the issue to go unnoticed.

1555013 is pretty damning in telling how the airlines treated the MAX as the same type as the 737-800:

"I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate the aircraft in all weather and aircraft states safely.

The instrumentation is completely different - My scan was degraded, slow and labored having had no experience w/ the new ND (Navigation Display) and ADI (Attitude Director Indicator) presentations/format or functions (manipulation between the screens and systems pages were not provided in training materials. If they were, I had no recollection of that material).

We were unable to navigate to systems pages and lacked the knowledge of what systems information was available to us in the different phases of flight. Our weather radar competency was inadequate to safely navigate significant weather on that dark and stormy night. These are just a few issues that were not addressed in our training.

I recommend the following to help crews w/ their introductory flight on the Max:Email notification the day before the flight (the email should include: Links - Training Video, PSOB and QRG and all relevant updates/FAQ's)SME (Subject Matter Expert) Observer - the role of the SME is to introduce systems navigation, display management, answer general questions and provide standardized best practices to the next generation aircraft.Additionally, the SME will collect de-identified data to provide to the training department for analysis and dissemination to the line pilots regarding FAQs and know systems differences as well best practices in fly the new model aircraft."

[EDIT] Fixed ACN Number

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#92

Post by mimixco »

Someone1234 wrote: post #25

This article is less compelling than the title would suggest. After the Lion Air crash the FAA released a Emergency Airworthiness Directive, these five comments are in response to that directive. That differentiates it from pilots that had a negative run-in with MCAS or other defects in the 737 Max 8 (which would be significant news). This article might inform you pilots are unhappy, but that fact has been widely cir…

The Dallas News report shows two separate complaints where the pilots knew of and discussed MCAS on the flight deck before take off and still had serious problems with it.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#93

Post by michaelt »

js2 wrote: post #73
JKCalhoun wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ignorant of aviation, oversimplifying, but my summary: they fixed issues with the hardware in software. A little scary?

The alternative would have been redesigning the 737 such that it would be a different plane. There are advantages to keeping it as similar as possible to the previous generation. Boeing was in a bit of a bind. They had a plane (the 737) originally designed for different requirements (the plane is low to the ground) in wide spread use that the airlines wanted them to make more fuel efficient to stay competitive with A…

I'm not clear on why having different engines, different handling and MCAS makes it not-a-new-plane, but having the landing gear extend further down would make it a new plane?

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#94

Post by mannykannot »

tuna-piano wrote: post #71
mannykannot wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the documents! I searched through item 1 for 'trim', and while I found some trim failure reports, and the complaint about Boeing's nondisclosure of MCAS in its documentation, I did not notice any concerns over disabling a runaway trim situation.

Not sure what that means though. As far as I am aware (totally a layperson), there have been potentially only 3 potential 737-MAX MCAS trim issue occurrences: 1. The Lion Air flight prior to the fatal lion air flight 2. The Lion air flight which crashed 3. The Ethiopian flight which crashed Of course I don't think any of those 3 are absolutely confirmed, but I do think it seems likely the three had MCAS trim related…

From the article's title, one might get the impression that pilots have been saying that MCAS is dangerous. What I was trying to do was distinguish between possible MCAS incidents and safety concerns, complaints about Boeing's nondisclosure of MCAS, and pitch-down incidents that had other causes (incidents of the last case seem to be related to the autopilot, rather than MCAS.)

The latest crash certainly looks suspicious, but we don't really know yet, and the Lion Air crash occurred before the details about how MCAS could behave on sensor failure had been revealed. One would certainly hope that after this was revealed, all Max-8 pilots would be well prepared to recognize the situation and handle it, which might suggest that there is something more (or different) about this case (which could be worse news for Boeing).

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#95

Post by woodrowbarlow »

oliveshell wrote: post #75
JKCalhoun wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ignorant of aviation, oversimplifying, but my summary: they fixed issues with the hardware in software. A little scary?

> A little scary? Perhaps, but it’s not unprecedented. The B2 stealth bomber, for example, famously lacks a vertical stabilizer (tail fin) and so is inherently unstable and relies on computerized control surfaces to maintain stable flight [1]. This seems to have worked fine, although the things definitely log way fewer flight hours than an airliner. I believe several other aircraft do this as well (fighter jets and s…

i don't know anything about aircraft, but i would be inclined to think that the lack of tail fin on a B2 isn't just a design flaw or technical debt from the previous model and that there were other reasons for it.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#97

Post by tuna-piano »

dpwm wrote: post #91
ehsankia wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be ironic if the lack of 737-MAX category for reports is why these reports never made it to the people who needed to see them, which caused the issue to go unnoticed.

1555013 is pretty damning in telling how the airlines treated the MAX as the same type as the 737-800: "I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate th…

Wow. That's the same type of training material we would get when I worked at a coffee shop (large chain) and we came out with a new drink. Maybe even less - At the coffee shop we had to do a test with the manager for them to see that we could make the new drink successfully to standard.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#98

Post by leeoniya »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #54
blackflame7000 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another issue is that the engines on the Max version are larger than the NG version and didn’t fit under the wing. So they had to raise the mounting point forward and up as well as extend the nose gear 18 inches. These changes caused the plane to have a different flight profile to the NG version. However it would have been disasterous if pilots already certified for the 737 couldn’t fly the 737 max. So boeing impleme…

I'm ignorant of aviation, oversimplifying, but my summary: they fixed issues with the hardware in software. A little scary?

i've read that B2's simply cannot be flown manually.

https://www.quora.com/How-are-inherently-unstable-aircraft-s...

edit: oops someone already said this 30min ago

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#99

Post by sfilargi »

For a car analogy, imagine Tesla creates a new model that under certain conditions tends to over-steer left. To prevent any accidents because of that, they have added a system that turns the steering wheel clockwise. To disable the system it is not enough to try to prevent by force the steering wheel from turning, but you have to press a button that disables electric steering assistance.

Notice they have never briefed you about this new system because they didn't want to retrain you.

You happily drive along the highway at 70mph when the system malfunctions and incorrectly thinks the car is over-steering left, so the steering wheel starts rotating clockwise. The car swiftly moves to the lane in your right as you use all your strength to prevent it and manage to bring the car back in the lane.

In the mean time all kind of lights and sounds go off on your cockpit. In 5 seconds, while you are trying to find out what to make out of all the lights flashing, the steering wheel starts turning the card right again. This time you are not so lucky and you crash into the truck on your right.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#100

Post by NikolaNovak »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #60
selectodude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably southwest pilots. If it’s not analog it’s too much for them.

Well this shit doesn't sound any better: 1565207 At cruise flight, our Wi-Fi stopped working. I then saw that I was unable to access the Pilot Mobile app. Since I do not routinely copy the flight plan to iBook or acrobat (we are not required to do this), I was unable to access the flight plan. I've lost Wi-Fi before but not had this problem. Maybe it's a 737max thing. My First Officer had a copy on iBook and airdropp…

Boggles the mind on several levels: 1. That airlines would use consumer tablets without hard-copy backup as matter of procedure. I remember Air Canada announcing it and how it would save so much weight for both pilots and the airplane, and thinking... I print my Google Maps as a backup for roadtrips, I sure as heck would do it on a flight!

2. Perhaps I'm misjudging, but the tone and perspective of pilot makes me worry for their approach and technical skills. Does not routinely copy to local device before takeoff? "Maybe it's a 737max thing"? Airdropping as a solution?

This does not smell off setting up for success... :<

Post reply on HN