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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#91

Post by zrobotics »

curtis wrote: post #69

I'm inclined to think that there ought to be a four year college degree that teaches a number of different trade skills as part of its core curriculum. A student in such a program might take history and mathematics courses similar to other college students, but would also learn concrete skills like welding, electrical wiring, HVAC, etc. The goal would be to have a graduate that might be able to find work in a variety…

The trouble is, that graduate wouldn't be much more worthwhile than a fresh high-school grad. Taking a few welding courses won't make you employable for most jobs, it takes quite a lot of time to build up that skill. And while a bit of knowledge of other trades is always a good thing, it takes more than a few classes to prepare someone to work in HVAC. While the liberal-arts model of small amounts of exposure to different fields is good, more specialization and focus is needed.

For instance, I'm glad I took some economics classes in school, but in no way am I prepared to work in that field.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#92

Post by ams6110 »

Datenstrom wrote: post #88
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. And did you? Have you read and mastered all the textbooks necessary to allow you to pass the necessary exams to get a degree or to get a solid score on the GRE for your academic specialization? If not, that reali…

Similar situation and yes I have done that and far beyond. I even work in a field where it is just assumed I have a degree and people are always extremely shocked when I mention that I do not. I am under the impression it is not possible to CLEP computer science classes or in any way get recognition for this. Is that correct? Edit: specify CLEP for computer science

Good question. Are there any accredited graduate programs or professional programs that will accept students without undergrad degrees but with good GRE scores?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#93

Post by ams6110 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #79
paulpauper wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not the school system but rather too much education and commodification of education. 100 years ago , knowing how to read and write and do basic math was special and made one employable, but now such skills are so commonplace, so more advanced education is needed to differentiate one's self

Back then, high school graduation had an exam and a higher standard that most folks could do now. Can you amortize a loan? Close a ledger? Calculate return on an investment from a series of data points? Most can't today, regardless of college education. So, real education still has value.

Back then, most people finished school at grade 8.

Those who went to High School were smart and motivated to further their education. So curricula could be correspondingly more challenging/faster-paced.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#94

Post by benj111 »

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Yes, but on the other hand, some people just don't like school, and would rather get out and do something practical.

This isn't an easy problem to solve, the UK introduced grammar and comprehensives post war, unified the 2 as secondary moderns, and is now introducing university technical colleges. But at least for the UK, this is all tied up with class. Lower classes did things with their hands. I don't think that association is as strong as it was though. Coal mines and low tech industry have been replaced by high tech manufacturing.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#95

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

Datenstrom wrote: post #88
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. And did you? Have you read and mastered all the textbooks necessary to allow you to pass the necessary exams to get a degree or to get a solid score on the GRE for your academic specialization? If not, that reali…

Similar situation and yes I have done that and far beyond. I even work in a field where it is just assumed I have a degree and people are always extremely shocked when I mention that I do not. I am under the impression it is not possible to CLEP computer science classes or in any way get recognition for this. Is that correct? Edit: specify CLEP for computer science

You can take the GRE for CS without being a student, as proof of your knowledge. I have heard of very rare cases where people have been admitted to a professional master's program (different from the regular master's program in that it's meant for working professionals) without having a degree.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#96

Post by ryandrake »

SeanDav wrote: post #42
ngngngng wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without h…

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an educ…

I’d agree with this. Sadly, the vast majority of the value that I got out of 4 year university was the piece of paper that said I graduated. The software development skills that I needed in my day to day job I had already learned by myself as a teenager. The advanced math and computer science classes were interesting but I can’t say I’ve used any of it after the exam. My career is no better due to my knowing what an eigenvector is. And the humanities fluff/filler they made you take to graduate was an irrelevant waste of time and money. I just needed that damn diploma. It is a signal to employers that says “this person has passed at least one standard hurdle and is qualified for a shot st the middle class,” but that’s about it. As OP points out, many career-training skills can be self-learned, especially nowadays, so I’m not sure why you’d go besides for the diploma.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#97

Post by fullshark »

jacquesm wrote: post #44
fullshark wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor return on investment given risks involved, you're better off offloading that cost of education/training to the individual and then just hiring them when they signal they are worthy of employment.

I have hired high school drop-outs and academics, both the best and the worst performers came in roughly equal proportions from both groups.

I don’t know what you hired them for, but if it was a skilled labor task they had some sort of signal in their resume they could do the job (github repo). We are talking about basically taking HS graduates with nothing except grades/extra curriculars and investing N months in training them for some job you have no certainty they will be able to do, and no assurance they won’t just go to your competition afterward.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#98

Post by okmokmz »

claudiulodro wrote: post #64

I blame the recession more than any stigma. There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades. I and many other millenials definitely applied for trade apprenticeships back when we got out of high school. In my case after doing very well on the electrician apprentice entrance exams I was still 200th in line because of the recession, and they weren't really onboarding many new apprentices. I ended up g…

>There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades.

There is absolutely a stigma related to trades for some groups of people. I know a lot of younger tech workers, and other college educated white collar workers, who would look down on jobs such as plumbers, mechanics, skilled laborers, etc.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#99

Post by ngngngng »

RankingMember wrote: post #75
SeanDav wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an educ…

The "need that piece of paper" thing is sad but true. I do think it is changing, as I notice more and more IT job postings asking for X degree or equivalent experience nowadays.

Amazons current job postings (at least at pillpack) advertise the need for a degree or 3 YEARS of experience for every 1 year a degree takes. So 12 years experience = 1 degree.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#100

Post by EpicEng »

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

At what point in time has the world as a whole been more educated than we are now? It seems to me that we've made great strides toward this goal, but the reality is that A) not everyone is cut out for it, and B) until we live in a Star Trek like utopia, life will never allow the majority of people to spend years studying e.g. philosophy in lieu of supporting themselves, their dependents, and contributing material value to society.
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