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Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

kirkcenter.org

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Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#91
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really bizarre or really unconnected. In fact, for most of history, and with very great many minds throughout history agreeing to that, it would be your objection that would be considered bizarre. You don't have to believe in a specific creator or any specific religious mythology to agree with such a statement as "this world is fallen". Even as atheist like e.g. Emil Cioran could agree with such a statement. But…

Saying "the world is fallen" implies that the world fell from something. It didn't. The same rules of physics, as far as we can tell, have been plugging away since the very beginning. If you mean "The world sucks" then say that instead of saying "the world is fallen". Fallen has a very specific meaning, and using it as a poetic slush word is enough to make me not take the OP seriously.

>Saying "the world is fallen" implies that the world fell from something. It didn't

Welcome to the magic world of metaphors and symbolism...

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#92
post #82
post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

I disagreed with the central thesis, that dystopia necessarily arises from utopian visions. There are lots of dystopian settings throughout the last century that defy this - 1984, waterworld and mad max to name a few. For the author to go on to use this invented meaning as a counterargument to Trump's America being dystopian is disingenuous at best. I wouldn't call it a dystopia myself, but I'd hope to have better gr…

Well, I think, that a second central topic of the article is the 'naming calling'.

That is, using labels that previously widely used defined patterns resulting in real human-killing -- to, instead, describe a pattern that a person finds unfitting to his/her policy views.

In other words, misplaced naming calling, in a way, stealing the valor from the real victims of the true dystopian past events.

"... It is important to keep dystopia in its place, and in perspective.

There are and have been real dystopias in the world, and imaginary ones help illustrate how utopian visions can endanger decent regimes and communities.

Not every call for a border wall or “Medicare for all” is dystopian; one (or the other) may be a stupid idea, but it is not summoning 1984. ..."

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#93

Procedural arguments like this are silly. You have to judge things by what they are substantively. Feudalism and slavery were not utopian projects but they were clearly brutal. Nordic social democracy consciously set out to create a decent society for all and largely succeeded. I don't know what game the author is playing.

Nordic social democracy isn’t a utopian idea, though. It’s a progressive idea and an ambitious idea but it only really peeks out slightly from the normal range of market economies with welfare states, especially within Europe. Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century.

Was placing tens of millions in inheritable bondage really not close? Especially considering that the total world population was much lower.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nordic social democracy isn’t a utopian idea, though. It’s a progressive idea and an ambitious idea but it only really peeks out slightly from the normal range of market economies with welfare states, especially within Europe. Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century.

> Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century. By that I assume you're largely referring to the Soviet Union and China during the cultural revolution? Yeah sure, those were bad, but it's hard for me to say whether they were particularly better or worse than slavery (at least from the perspective of a slave). Moreover, I…

I think you could argue that the horrors of this last century have been crueler than all the others simply because there were so many more humans to thrust them upon. I'm not convinced that it had a higher horror per capita, though.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#95
post #3

I took a philosophy course on Utopian and Dystopian literature last year. The takeaway I had from the course is even more stark than this headline: Utopia and Dystopia are two names for the same concept. In all of the utopias we studied -- from Plato's Republic through Thomas More's Utopia and including Marx's Communist Manifesto -- the question that kept ringing in my ears was "utopia for whom?" Every utopia makes a…

> In all of the utopias we studied -- from Plato's Republic through Thomas More's Utopia and including Marx's Communist Manifesto

Strange this is mentioned as the communist manifesto contains a whole chapter criticizing Utopias.

Also - establishment intellectuals from Hegel to Fukuyama to Pinker talk about how we are in Utopia now, at the end of history with capitalism and liberalism triumphant.

Marx said not only was capitalism self-destructive, with crises (like the 2008 government bank/insurance/etc. bailout), but that socialism would be self-destructive too. Hard to call someone postulating the next system will self-destruct is utopian.

Also Marx replied to socialists wanting utopian plans from him by replying he was not August Comte, and he did not want to "write recipes for the cookshops of the future".

Marx was about as unutopian as you can be, other than he thought the progress of production and technology over the millennia would continue, with effects on relations of production. Something you read on HN regularly.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#96
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really bizarre or really unconnected. In fact, for most of history, and with very great many minds throughout history agreeing to that, it would be your objection that would be considered bizarre. You don't have to believe in a specific creator or any specific religious mythology to agree with such a statement as "this world is fallen". Even as atheist like e.g. Emil Cioran could agree with such a statement. But…

Saying "the world is fallen" implies that the world fell from something. It didn't. The same rules of physics, as far as we can tell, have been plugging away since the very beginning. If you mean "The world sucks" then say that instead of saying "the world is fallen". Fallen has a very specific meaning, and using it as a poetic slush word is enough to make me not take the OP seriously.

> If you mean "The world sucks" then say that instead of saying "the world is fallen".

If you mean that you don't like the author's choice of words, then that that instead of saying "the entire article [is] essentially meaningless".

> Fallen has a very specific meaning

Which of the four definitions in WordNet, or dozens of other possible dictionary meanings, is that very specific meaning?

> and using it as a poetic slush word is enough to make me not take the OP seriously.

"Slush" has a very specific meaning, involving partially frozen materials. I feel that your use of it here has rendered your entire comment essentially meaningless.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#97
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

Not really bizarre or really unconnected. In fact, for most of history, and with very great many minds throughout history agreeing to that, it would be your objection that would be considered bizarre. You don't have to believe in a specific creator or any specific religious mythology to agree with such a statement as "this world is fallen". Even as atheist like e.g. Emil Cioran could agree with such a statement. But…

Fallen from what? It’s pretty obvious, in common parlance, what the word at the end of that sentence is.

I’d like to know what secular state of grace supposedly existed that we fell from?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#98
I think a lot of dystopias arise from Rousseau-style or blank-slate naturalism - the idea that humans are naturally good (or that they can be easily socialised to be naturally good).

A dystopian ruler does not believe they are destroying humanity, they believe they are rescuing humanity from some exogenous menace, whereas a more Hobbes-inspired ruler believes themselves to be rescuing humanity from itself.

If humans are only evil because they are brainwashed by capitalism, or patriarchy, religion, or royalty, or lizardmen, or the government, or some other menace then any brutality used to purge this evil is both justified and a temporary state of affairs. On the other hand, if you assume that some people are just a little bit naturally anti-social then trying to fight this (through either soft measures like education, or hard measures like punishment) is only justified if the the tangible benefits (not the promise of some eventual Utopia) exceed the costs.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#100
post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism.

"Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982

"Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences."

From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization

How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI

From the article: The abuse of technology is another characteristic of dystopia.

Google. Facebook.

From the article: Next, dystopia empowers a new class of rulers and uses propaganda and state terror to maintain the power of the regime...The ultimate result of dystopia can be seen in the tragedy of an individual.

Instead of only relying on state terror, there is a new brand of current day authoritarianism which is trying to use non-state power through media, social media, and non-governmental civic groups. The new twist is to erode freedom of speech, but not have it be technically illegal, because the government isn't doing it. The new twist is to erode due process and presumption of innocence, but it's not technically illegal, because trial by public opinion and media isn't a judicial process. The new twist is to disenfranchise people, but not in person, only online and in social media, because it's not "technically illegal." However, all of the above violates various principles of individual rights in spirit. To me, they are all dishonest means of having coercive, authoritarian effects on people at large, without being "technically illegal."

People who actually believe in universal principles of human rights don't try and coerce people. People who actually believe in those principles actually try to convince people, and when they can't convince, they listen. It's authoritarians who have succumbed to groupthink who seek to use power to coerce people into acquiescence. In my life experience, it's only those who believe another group are less than human, who give up dialogue and trying to convince.

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