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Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

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Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#91
post #62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's completely true. Most Americans do not have a better quality of life than most Swedes, most Danes, or most Germans.

There is no objective measure of quality of life. It might well be that you personally would rather be poor there than here, but it's not an objective and verifiable statement, and it could easily go the other way. It depends on which factors that you, personally, rate highest.

I agree that there is no 100% objective measure; however, that doesn't mean that we cannot look at common factors and get an overall idea.

Something along the lines of the degree to which one's life allows them to: Meet their physical needs Own a house/land Raise a family Have atonomy Satisfy higher needs such as education, creativity, self improvement, etc.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#92

You can buy and sell almost anything under capitalism. You can buy or sell property. You can buy or sell pieces of a company (stocks). You can buy or sell human labor. And the way that businesses make money is by essentially arbitraging some market, for example by buying something in one place and selling it somewhere where it is more expensive, or by buying labor and selling the products of that labor at a profit. B…

> So under socialism when people work, they work always and only for themselves or as part of a cooperative that they are an equal owner of.

The thing is that all new businesses start that way already. People, including workers, sell their shares in businesses to outside investors - sometimes even ceding their control into how the business is run, thus becoming "wage labor" at least to some extent - for all sorts of reasons. This does not make such transactions "non-voluntary"!

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#93
post #2

> “I don’t even think stasis is compatible with liberty,” he told the Washington audience. - Bezos Suppose one were to attempt to steelman Jeff’s statement. Is there any credible basis for this statement? Or is it just one of those things that powerful people say because it makes them sound profound and they don’t have to follow it up with substantive supporting evidence.

If he's talking about economic stasis, let's give it a go: 1) Economics are the monetary interactions of a given society, subgroup, population, etc 2) stasis refers to not just stagnation, but a complete lack of change 3) total lack of change at a meta-scale like a society only exists in totalitarian societies 4) in the case of total economic stasis, you would need a command economy/controlled economy 5) in the scena…

I think your post hides a few ideological conveniences which you've used to bolster your argument, or at least make it suond convincing. For instance,

>total lack of change at a meta-scale like a society only exists in totalitarian societies

Does it? Why?

>in the scenario of a command economy, some of the people involved in the economy would fundamentally need to be oppressed

Why? Where does the oppression come in? If it is being told what to produce then doesn't capitalism do the same, though through a distributed model of command? Isn't it true that under capitalism, one must work by someone else's instructions, by the duration dictated by this other, in the method prescribed by this other, in exchange for compensation often only negotiated by a group of these 'others' (save the power of unions intervening)?

>regardless of any moral or ethical judgements, a totally static economy would be inhibiting of the liberty of any given individual participating in it

According to what definition of liberty? Here's what Marx talked about[0]: communism comes in the form of a stateless society, its conception of liberty is radically different to the English liberal tradition's, which places liberty negatively defined as freedom from interference from others. So it seems like you need to preface "liberty" with "bourgeois liberty", or if you prefer, "classical libertarian definitions of liberty". You cannot take them for given.

>laws and regulations, when done correctly, can increase the number of practical/feasible options available to a populace, even though they technically restrict some of the options that would cause a society to fall apart

Under this schema, a hypothetical restriction on employing labour could do the same - people have more options on how to spend their time and to what end. But it's worth nothing that Marx (or any traditional socialist) never argued for imposing laws and regulations, they spoke about changing society, the whole framework of it. Consider that in Hegel, freedom is defined as the negation of necessity.

[0] https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/r.htm

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#94

No mention of ending inflation, which is a deliberate state-driven policy to steal from the poor to give to the rich and make the state "look good" by lowering the metric of unemployment: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/the-case-for-hi... "even in the long run, it’s really, really hard to cut nominal wages. Yet when you have very low inflation, getting relative wages right would require that a significan…

a. isn't krugman arguing FOR inflation? b. why is low unemployment bad? let's say we have a deflationary economy, doesn't that lead to high unemployment which is a feedback to more deflation? how is that not a bad thing? excuse my naivete

> why is low unemployment bad?

Low unemployment isn't inherently bad as an indicator, but attempting to force low unemployment with monetary policy is. In this context, lowering unemployment means increasing the financial pressure on workers so they accept lower wages.

Meanwhile technological progress is eliminating many traditional positions, so workers end up stuck between a rock and a hard place - the screws are being turned on them so they go out and look for a job harder, yet there's nothing to be found!

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#95

You can buy and sell almost anything under capitalism. You can buy or sell property. You can buy or sell pieces of a company (stocks). You can buy or sell human labor. And the way that businesses make money is by essentially arbitraging some market, for example by buying something in one place and selling it somewhere where it is more expensive, or by buying labor and selling the products of that labor at a profit. B…

> So under socialism when people work, they work always and only for themselves or as part of a cooperative that they are an equal owner of.

I don't see how this is possible without killing or even reversing progress.

Example: You work alone and make $500k a year. You know that if you had another good developer you could make a million a year. You know a lot of developers who currently make $100k a year. What is a fair pay? You might say $500k, sure, now both of you earn the same. But, then you realize that you can earn $1200k in total with yet another developer, what should you pay that developer then? $200k? Seems unfair, now he earns less than the first developer even though they do exactly the same job. Do you reduce the salary of the first developer to $350k to make it fair for both? I doubt many workers would think that reducing salary just to hire people is a good thing. Also you yourself would still earn $150k more than them, so would you reduce your own salary to $400k to make it fair? Then why would you even do the work to hire these people? Would they be happier to be stuck with $100k a year when you could easily pay them both $150k a year while still keeping significant profit? Would the world be better off with the 3 of you producing $700k total value (your $500k + their $100k each) instead of $1200k that you would produce together at your company?

Ultimately, the only reasonable thing to do is to hire people at what their job is worth for a typical company or slightly above that. Any value above that is not created by the worker but by the work creator. Then they are happy since you pay them more than they got before, you are happy since you earn money for the work of providing valuable jobs. As a bonus you never get into situations where you would like to hire a person, the person would like to work for you but you can't pay him the same as the rest of your workers since those workers are significantly overpaid compared to the rest of the market.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#96
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because capitalism, even on paper, will still imply poverty as a structural element. Without poverty and exploitation, the system cannot sustain itself. This without considering waste: Capitalism, being competitive at every scale, implies that to give feedback to the system, you have to waste. Waste resources, waste time, waste lives. The more waste, the better the outcome. If it works by different assumptions, it…

One definition of capitalism is simply the re-investment of profits into improvements - better tools, for example. That in no way implies poverty as a structural element.

I believe what GP is trying to say is that capitalism necessarily creates such an element, since they view it as a class structure society.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing in favour of the above argument. If case law has to be established on a case by case basis, then because the law is a priori insufficient.

No individual statute can encompass all possibilities hence the need for case law to clarify the law - it's a distinguishing characteristic of common law systems and, at least with respect to interpretation of statutes, also civil law systems.

> No individual statute can encompass all possibilities

In the same sense, a benevolent reading of OP's would find that it doesn't implicate all Anti Trust decisions, but just alleges that it's prone to, well, miscarriage of justice, I guess, having left specific examples to be specified by the factfinders, other commentators. I get that leaving arguments open like that is considered bad form.

No need to tell me that Anti Trust is based on prior case law and thus based on Examples. I wouldn't know. I feel that they didn't feel the need to spell those cases out again is a general problem, and I see that as a problem more from a coding persöective. It's horrible spaghetti code and bound to be buggy. As debugging has it, inspections run very slow and for a really good development experience you have to pay suppliers for support and fixes. Vice versa, some vital functionality may be outsourced from the OS to third parties, or restricted by the OS. Complaints against such practice yield the typical recommendation to use free software or implement your own stack, instead.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#98

You can buy and sell almost anything under capitalism. You can buy or sell property. You can buy or sell pieces of a company (stocks). You can buy or sell human labor. And the way that businesses make money is by essentially arbitraging some market, for example by buying something in one place and selling it somewhere where it is more expensive, or by buying labor and selling the products of that labor at a profit. B…

What socialism system are you talking about? Just name one socialist country that applies your ideal scenarios. IMHO this system only exist in your mind, it is not real. Countries that people say are Socialist like those in the north of Europe, are really capitalistic societies. I have known plenty of real socialist countries in the world, and they only share misery. In those socialist countries, like Venezuela or Cu…

"but that's socialism!"

Ok fine, give us socialism.

"but those countries aren't socialist"

Ok fine, give us what those countries have.

"but that's socialism!"

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#99
post #2

> “I don’t even think stasis is compatible with liberty,” he told the Washington audience. - Bezos Suppose one were to attempt to steelman Jeff’s statement. Is there any credible basis for this statement? Or is it just one of those things that powerful people say because it makes them sound profound and they don’t have to follow it up with substantive supporting evidence.

On the face of it the statement looks like one of those things that is either a tautology, or false. If society is in a state of stasis, that means no one is allowed to do things that go beyond what society is doing in the present. That means you don't have the right to innovate, to try new things, and so on, which seems integral to individual liberty. So his statement is obviously true. However, if you consider libe…

> if you consider liberty as a social construct

If you consider prosperity as a social construct, you'll find out that many societies have self-reportedly achieved it, even if you would find them oppressive and dirt-poor by your own standards.

BTW moving key notions from the realm of somehow reality-testable to the realm of purely denotational and conventional was the way how the Party in "1984" ruled the minds of people. War is peace, freedom is slavery, etc.

Re: Seven Fixes for American Capitalism

#100

You can buy and sell almost anything under capitalism. You can buy or sell property. You can buy or sell pieces of a company (stocks). You can buy or sell human labor. And the way that businesses make money is by essentially arbitraging some market, for example by buying something in one place and selling it somewhere where it is more expensive, or by buying labor and selling the products of that labor at a profit. B…

What socialism system are you talking about? Just name one socialist country that applies your ideal scenarios. IMHO this system only exist in your mind, it is not real. Countries that people say are Socialist like those in the north of Europe, are really capitalistic societies. I have known plenty of real socialist countries in the world, and they only share misery. In those socialist countries, like Venezuela or Cu…

Look, I get what you mean. People should just clarify that they mean "Socialism with Danish characteristics", and all this ambiguity would disappear!
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