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How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

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Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, I'll break the trend: they are underpaid It's all relative to how much things cost. Suppose one of these engineers wants to buy a home. Here, somebody of similar skill could afford any one of: a. new McMansion b. waterfront property with a boat dock and canal access to the ocean c. canal access for an airboat d. a condo literally on the beach e. 11 acres, sheep, goats, can fire an AR-15 in the backyard For each…

Why are you using a McMansion and a boat dock as part of the canonical benchmark lifestyle? What if you want to live in a tiny apartment and direct your money towards travel, cars, hobby gear, or index fund shares so you can retire at 35 instead? All these things cost the same whether you live in the Bay Area or rural Kansas, so you’re better off maximizing absolute income even it means living somewhere with expensiv…

Or even better lets say you want to save 75% of your income for 20 years then do some fun stuff. Suddenly high income/high cost areas look much better.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, I'll break the trend: they are underpaid It's all relative to how much things cost. Suppose one of these engineers wants to buy a home. Here, somebody of similar skill could afford any one of: a. new McMansion b. waterfront property with a boat dock and canal access to the ocean c. canal access for an airboat d. a condo literally on the beach e. 11 acres, sheep, goats, can fire an AR-15 in the backyard For each…

Why are you using a McMansion and a boat dock as part of the canonical benchmark lifestyle? What if you want to live in a tiny apartment and direct your money towards travel, cars, hobby gear, or index fund shares so you can retire at 35 instead? All these things cost the same whether you live in the Bay Area or rural Kansas, so you’re better off maximizing absolute income even it means living somewhere with expensiv…

[deleted]

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#93
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 8yr experience and saw offer for total comp of 225k/yr in bay area. No concurrent offers, non-faang company, publicly traded. Salary is extremely variable is my takeaway.

"Total comp" is not nearly the same thing as salary.

For stable, publicly traded companies it is practically the same thing.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#94
post #21

I recently finished reading the book Never Split the Difference and I would highly recommend it. It's a slightly different take on the traditional negotiation tropes we've all heard. I've managed to employ many of the techniques in my day to day as a PM with success, but his discussions on salary negotiation resonated with me. I'm sure you can find some notes on the book to derive 50% of the value, but the author's s…

I've read that book and others. NSTD is both extremely good and extremely bad.

TLDR: It's a great book if you can ignore his attitude. And ignore every negative thing he says about Ivy MBA programs and their books. He is simply wrong about them.

The good:

The methods advocated in the book are somewhat "simple" to remember. This is because he focuses on what will work 70-80% of the time, whereas other books tend to also target the remaining scenarios, creating bloat and complex methods.

This is probably the best book when it comes to the psychological aspect of negotiation. The other books do have it, but tend to focus more on the rational aspects.

The bad:

Writing style can be very offputting. An incredible amount of boasting. A lot of it is justified, given he was one of the FBI's top negotiators. But he goes well beyond it. He starts the book describing how he walked into a Harvard class on negotiating and completely dominated the other students with his negotiation prowess. And he goes on and on about how he beat the Harvard students. Really? In my warped view of the world, I thought it was a given that a Harvard student new to negotiations should be able to beat the FBI's top negotiator.

This was beyond pathetic. It's as if Roger Federer wrote a book boasting about how we visited a tennis academy and managed to trounce everyone. What an achievement!

The anti-academic bashing is strong, and quite unjustified. Throughout the book he boasts that his techniques are way better in the real world than what the academics/Ivy schools teach. Umm... no. I read the Ivy school's books before reading this one, and roughly 70-80% of the techniques in NSTD are the same as the ones taught in MBA programs.

I've noted many parts of NSTD where he makes a false claim against the Ivy Books, or where he claims the Ivy Books don't teach Y. One day I intend to write a detailed review on a blog somewhere listing all his claims, and next to each one quoting one of the Ivy Books refuting his claims. It's just very dishonest of the author to criticize other books this way.

(And no, I don't think any of the Ivy Books actually suggest splitting the difference as a good strategy - I recall one even saying it is an option, but mostly if nothing else is working and your BATNA is not good).

Finally, some good books talk about different negotiation strategies based on your relationship with the person. When you don't care about the other person (e.g. haggling in a marketplace), the strategy you would use differs very much from one where you value the relationship (e.g. business partner). He doesn't really distinguish, and it's not surprising given his background where most of his professional negotiations were one-off.

Please be careful when using his tactics with people you want to maintain good relations with. They work well the first few times, but some of them really start to annoy people. One of my managers left our team and was replaced by another one (new to managing). The new manager used some of these techniques, although she had not read the book (especially the continual "How can I do that?" questions). She was relatively successful in the negotiations, but it damaged a lot of relationships. 3 people eventually moved to other teams.

If one is looking for additional books to read, I recommend:

- Bargaining For Advantage (not very prescriptive, but this is the best one to make someone interested in negotiations and want to learn more).

- Getting Past No. You probably should read Getting To Yes before reading it, though. GPN has some overlap with NSTD regarding the psychological side of negotiating.

Getting To Yes is often recommended. It's decent. My only caveat is that it is not as broad as BfA, and because it gets recommended all the time, a lot of people feel GTY is "sufficient". When it fails for them, they abandon the whole discipline thinking they're just not cut out for it.

Not specific to negotiations, but I recommend as well:

- Influence. Many books (including NSTD) invoke this book.

- A good book on communications (e.g. Nonviolent Communications or Crucial Conversations).

A lot of negotiation techniques are derived from these two topics, and they'll make a lot more sense if you've read them.

Finally, regarding salary negotiations, there's actually a really good one in the book, which is the flip of what is usually taught. The conventional wisdom is that if you can't get your desired salary, negotiate on other things (work environment, work from home, hours, vacations, perks). He flipped it around. If it seems they won't match your salary, keep asking for benefits/perks that are somewhat reasonable, but you're confident they can't provide them. The company will usually say "Sorry, we can't provide that perk, would a $x increase in salary do?"

I haven't tried it, but I can see it would work - most large companies have a limited set of variables they can tweak, and cannot customize much for a single employee. So they compensate by increasing the offer.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#95
One thing to keep in mind is that (in theory, but also from what I have seen in practice) better starting salary at Google will fairly quickly be negated by smaller raises in the future.

Same level / performance will be equal after a few years, so the really important thing to work on is (perceived) performance.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#96
What bothers me about this is not the figures, but the feeling that the only thing that matters to increase your salary is competing offers.

The more articles I read the more convinced I am that this is by far the most important factor in an offer, including interview performance. Companies seem to rely in a 'wisdom of the crowds' of sorts.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody willing to pay me 200k+? I'm a python expert. I know golang. I can do fullstack work but my preference is for the backend. I'm basically a polyglot, willing to do anything from scala, haskell, python, lisp, you name it. I have good fundamentals, and extensive experience diving into and navigating large/old codebases.

This might be an unpopular opinion here, but I would change how you pitch/market yourself. First, if a candidate talks about programming languages a lot (especially if they're talking about Lisp and Haskell), that can be a sign that they're going to be unhappy working within the confines my team's Java/C++/whatever codebase, and that they're going to complain a lot and try to rewrite things in other languages. That's…

All of this advice is spot on.

I recommend not even mentioning a language in your resume, just explain what you worked on. If they ask if you can program in X, the answer is "of course I can program in X", because of course you can, languages are easy to learn. If they ask if you worked with technology Y, you say "yes" or if that's not true, you say that "I worked with similar technology Z, and I looked at Y and it seemed easy enough to learn in a few days".

You want to position yourself as a person that will do anything that needs to be done, and if it requires learning something new, you'll learn that quickly, as you've already done many times before. Just don't lie, as it can easily poison the well.

Some companies are looking for e.g. Rails developer, and they might reject you if you're not Rails developer, or they don't realize that you are. This is fine, these companies almost never pay $250k+ anyway. Companies that do are looking for people who can do anything they ask them to, not just some simple well-specified tasks.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#98
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Total comp" is not nearly the same thing as salary.

For stable, publicly traded companies it is practically the same thing.

No job lasts forever. You will eventually move on. When you do, you will leave un-vested RSUs on the table. That's pay that you will never collect. "Total compensation" is not the same as being paid an actual salary.

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#99

Every time something like this is posted a, likely very good, engineer who does not live in the Valley post about how overpaid these engineers are. Compensation is heavily dependent on market rates. It's far more difficult to hire a strong senior engineer in the valley than it is in most other cities in the US. Even companies in fairly remote areas can hire a remote developer or pay a SF engineer to relocate for less…

Here, I'll break the trend: they are underpaid It's all relative to how much things cost. Suppose one of these engineers wants to buy a home. Here, somebody of similar skill could afford any one of: a. new McMansion b. waterfront property with a boat dock and canal access to the ocean c. canal access for an airboat d. a condo literally on the beach e. 11 acres, sheep, goats, can fire an AR-15 in the backyard For each…

Why is housing the benchmark of wealth ? And the great thing about living in a high income area is that you can have a nice vacation home that matches your criteria above

Re: How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley

#100

Every time something like this is posted a, likely very good, engineer who does not live in the Valley post about how overpaid these engineers are. Compensation is heavily dependent on market rates. It's far more difficult to hire a strong senior engineer in the valley than it is in most other cities in the US. Even companies in fairly remote areas can hire a remote developer or pay a SF engineer to relocate for less…

Here, I'll break the trend: they are underpaid It's all relative to how much things cost. Suppose one of these engineers wants to buy a home. Here, somebody of similar skill could afford any one of: a. new McMansion b. waterfront property with a boat dock and canal access to the ocean c. canal access for an airboat d. a condo literally on the beach e. 11 acres, sheep, goats, can fire an AR-15 in the backyard For each…

The most important problem for me at living in a similar place was just one thing: lack of women.

I was compensated for not having a girlfriend, as it is a scarce resource that a high salary can't buy. By looking back in my life to those years, it wasn't worth it.

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