Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#91

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:21 AM UTC

SethTro wrote: post #84

billfruit wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most probably Facebook didn't make the games themselves. And I thought one had to be at least 13 years to use Facebook, but probably some parents are allowed younger kids access.

Average age of angry bird user was 5 the article says

Really? I thought the presence of the brand was bigger (back in the day) than that would allow for. An average age of 5 puts a pretty sharp limit on the number of 30-year-olds who can play. They're not going to be balanced out by one -20-year-old each.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#92

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:28 AM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #83

ShroudedNight wrote: post #26

1. Company is on the record as being aware of unauthorized use of parents' credit cards. 1a. Company is aware of channels particularly prone to unauthorized use of credit cards (with Ninja games being presented as the archetype). 2. Company creates a method for verifying the authority of purchase (and confirms that it works) 3. Company intentionally does not implement verification method, thus explicitly profiting fr…

The catch is FB requires that users be 13+, and someone younger than that using FB is a violation of their terms. Some if not most of these kids may be younger than that.

It seems reminiscent of marketing tobacco/nicotine to minors. It's easy to say "well, it's not our fault people are breaking the law/contract" up until it comes out that internal documents show the company was targeting such people.

I don't completely understand why people maintain that something could be innocent while ignoring the evidence that it wasn't.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#93

Post by mmmmmmmmm » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:28 AM UTC

Seems like there are three points of failure here:

1. Dumbfuck kids who don't realize they're spending money. 2. Scummy games that deliberately obfuscate the fact that you're spending real money. 3. Facebook not requiring any sort of verification to spend money via a game.

Remove any one of these three and the problem doesn't exist. Facebook certainly seems to be at greatest fault here, but it's amazing how much the game developers have managed to escape scrutiny.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#94

Post by mirimir » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:58 AM UTC

ShroudedNight wrote: post #26

1. Company is on the record as being aware of unauthorized use of parents' credit cards. 1a. Company is aware of channels particularly prone to unauthorized use of credit cards (with Ninja games being presented as the archetype). 2. Company creates a method for verifying the authority of purchase (and confirms that it works) 3. Company intentionally does not implement verification method, thus explicitly profiting fr…

Well, in TFA:

> The records are part of a class-action lawsuit focused on how Facebook targeted children in an effort to expand revenue for online games, such as Angry Birds, PetVille and Ninja Saga.

They have a strong case, I think. Indeed, the facts are so egregious that punitive (treble) damages are possible. So even if class counsel take ~30%, the class could get ~100% recovery. How much? Well, basically it'd be [number of children]*[amount charged per child]. Maybe a few $billion?

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#95

Post by NedIsakoff » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 5:28 AM UTC

wl wrote: post #32

DanielDent wrote: post #29

"Friendly fraud" is not a Facebook-invented term. It's a term used and understood by card issuers, acquirers, and merchants. Friendly fraud encompasses: - Dissatisfied customers who don't find refuge in a refund policy/process - Customers who are embarrassed by their purchases. This situation is commonly triggered when a significant other reads a credit card statement. - Customers who spend beyond their means, and th…

> Dissatisfied customers who don't find refuge in a refund policy/process It's dangerous to label such things as fraud. Chargebacks are a consumer protection mechanism of last resort as well as a remedy for unauthorized charges. If a merchant doesn't deliver what they promised and doesn't issue the appropriate refund, the merchant is the one engaging in fraud.

My sister-in-law works in a fashion store. They have a 14 day return policy assuming same condition. You be surprised how many people buy a dress, cut all the tags, wear it once to an event, and try to return it.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#96

Post by TylerE » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

ShroudedNight wrote: post #26

1. Company is on the record as being aware of unauthorized use of parents' credit cards. 1a. Company is aware of channels particularly prone to unauthorized use of credit cards (with Ninja games being presented as the archetype). 2. Company creates a method for verifying the authority of purchase (and confirms that it works) 3. Company intentionally does not implement verification method, thus explicitly profiting fr…

Maybe parents should have a separate login for their kids that doesn't have the CC info saved?

Leaving that saved in the browser is awful close to authorization since there are reasonable, low-effort steps that could be followed by a non-technical user to prevent it from happening.

It's like leaving your card on the kitchen counter and being upset when they order pizza.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#97

Post by dang » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 6:07 AM UTC

loteck wrote: post #68

dang wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, we'll de-dupe it.

With all due respect, I think his was plainly obvious to someone who even glanced at the submitted story, and shouldn't have had to been explained to mods.

Different things are obvious to different people!

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#98

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 6:50 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #96

ShroudedNight wrote: post #26

1. Company is on the record as being aware of unauthorized use of parents' credit cards. 1a. Company is aware of channels particularly prone to unauthorized use of credit cards (with Ninja games being presented as the archetype). 2. Company creates a method for verifying the authority of purchase (and confirms that it works) 3. Company intentionally does not implement verification method, thus explicitly profiting fr…

Maybe parents should have a separate login for their kids that doesn't have the CC info saved? Leaving that saved in the browser is awful close to authorization since there are reasonable, low-effort steps that could be followed by a non-technical user to prevent it from happening. It's like leaving your card on the kitchen counter and being upset when they order pizza.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#99

Post by pdonis » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 6:54 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #96

ShroudedNight wrote: post #26

1. Company is on the record as being aware of unauthorized use of parents' credit cards. 1a. Company is aware of channels particularly prone to unauthorized use of credit cards (with Ninja games being presented as the archetype). 2. Company creates a method for verifying the authority of purchase (and confirms that it works) 3. Company intentionally does not implement verification method, thus explicitly profiting fr…

Maybe parents should have a separate login for their kids that doesn't have the CC info saved? Leaving that saved in the browser is awful close to authorization since there are reasonable, low-effort steps that could be followed by a non-technical user to prevent it from happening. It's like leaving your card on the kitchen counter and being upset when they order pizza.

> Maybe parents should have a separate login for their kids that doesn't have the CC info saved?

In at least one case in the article (the 12-year old in Phoenix), the kid apparently did have a separate account; but he asked his mom to let him use her card for what he thought was a one-time purchase, but Facebook stored the card info and behaved like recurring payments had been authorized. (Also the game appears to have been highly non-transparent about when such charges were being incurred.)

So while I agree that the mom would have been well advised not to let the kid use the card for even that one-time purchase, I think that pales in comparison to Facebook's conduct.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#100

Post by ian0 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

DanielDent wrote: post #29

"Friendly fraud" is not a Facebook-invented term. It's a term used and understood by card issuers, acquirers, and merchants. Friendly fraud encompasses: - Dissatisfied customers who don't find refuge in a refund policy/process - Customers who are embarrassed by their purchases. This situation is commonly triggered when a significant other reads a credit card statement. - Customers who spend beyond their means, and th…

>I find it weird the way Facebook seems to be using the term here.

In my experience fraudulent chargebacks for payments processed without liability-shifting authentication (3D secure etc) are typically lumped together as "friendly fraud". Regardless of origin. With digital purchases, especially fungible ones like game credits, there exists quite a lot of organised fraud exploiting "one-click" checkout chargeback SOPs.