Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#91

Post by moorhosj » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 8:58 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #46

closeparen wrote: post #12

Warning: speculation. Suppose that a city’s value and economy descend in large part from connectivity. A transit system is extremely useful at a few very specific points, but your connectedness drops off sharply as you get even a few blocks away from it, due to the extreme inefficiency of walking or (worse) waiting for a connecting bus. A road network’s utility is broad and diffuse, with gentle gradients of utility f…

Related anecdote: I was recently looking at home prices in Chicago, and it seems that people place an enormous value on easy access to the train system. Just eyeballing it, it looked like a house that's less than 1 mile from the nearest train station commands about a $150-$200,000 premium over one that's more than 2 miles from the L.

Yea, Chicago is an older city by US standards and it’s clear when you compare it to cities built after the car was widely adopted (mostly Sun Belt cities). I think it’s one of the reasons Europeans tend to enjoy Chicago when they visit, it has much of the walkability they are used to. Cities like Atlanta, Houston and LA seem built around the idea of everyone driving a car.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#92

Post by beefalo » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 8:59 PM UTC

skizm wrote: post #84

More than 50% of commuters drive to work alone in NYC? That seems insane to me. I don't know or know of a single person that drives to work in NYC. Tolls and parking alone would eat around $10k per year, plus even if it was free the traffic seems to make it not worth it when compared to subways. Also, if you're willing to shell out the money to drive, why not just take a cab or uber at that point? Is there some large…

The data is for the whole NYC metro area, so the drivers are probably people that live and work in the suburbs and are not commuting to Manhattan. I have seen numbers that put people in the city proper at like 75% no car ownership.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#93

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:05 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #82

njarboe wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it wonderful how the car allowed a large number of families to own a home with a piece of land, yet have access to the amenities of a city? Nice and spread out living spaces with concentration for work and culture. Now we just need some tunnels or something to deal with the problems that fast above ground car transport causes (mostly noise, pollution, and using up precious surface land).

Is that true? The U.S. doesn't have a particularly high percentage of home ownership (64.5%) compared to other countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

I don't have numbers to back it up, but home RENTAL rates are quite high in many places. A home with a decent sized lawn, say, a dozen blocks from downtown will often rent for about the same (or even cheaper) than a smaller downtown apartment.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#94

Post by burlesona » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:07 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #29

burlesona wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it’s a map of commuting, so what else would it show?

My point is a map seems like a poor choice for the data. If half of your map is empty, and you’re really only showing a grouping of 3 categories, maybe use a graph or something else.

Yeah that’s fair, thanks for clarifying.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#95

Post by benj111 » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:09 PM UTC

Kerrick wrote: post #80

benj111 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, is that car orientated cities tend to grow out, rather than densify. So you never get the critical mass, where transit becomes required.

There are major exceptions to this, usually involving the city's potential expansion zone being bounded by water on multiple sides. Manhattan, San Francisco, and Seattle all have this feature -- and they've all developed into critical mass, where transit becomes required.

Manhattan and San Francisco at least, developed before the car, so may well have already had the critical mass before the car came along.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#96

Post by decebalus1 » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

bloomca wrote: post #27

I don't think there is such a great divide. The greater divide is between people who own a car (or cars) and who do not, however, seems for USA it is a divide between New York City and the rest of the country. Also, I can comment on one thing I personally enjoy a lot – walking. I lived in many European cities, and recently moved to USA, so I can comment on it. To be able to walk, you need to live close enough to your…

The only city I lived in which resembled the pedestrian friendliness I grew up in Europe was Portland. Although distances are generous, a combination of public transit - bicycling and walking made Portland a pretty nice and safe place to be a pedestrian.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#97

Post by ndnxhs » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #68

briandear wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walking, public transport and biking are orders of magnitude more inefficient if you have kids or have to transport anything bigger than a backpack.

As someone who grew up in New York, kids are actually much easier with walking, public transport, and biking. I was able to go out to school, head to team sports, go to restaurants and shopping, hang out with friends, etc. all independently. When I went to college, all of my suburban friends hadn't done too much of any of that, because being in the suburbs before driving age requires a parent available to be your cha…

Living in the suburbs meant I met up with friends outside of school so few times I could count it on my fingers. Everyone was ~20km away and the bus system only comes during school start and end times.

I'd say this is one of the main reasons for the popularity of video games and child obesity. Kids have no way of getting around so they are stuck at home.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#98

Post by ndnxhs » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #83

bobthepanda wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up in New York, kids are actually much easier with walking, public transport, and biking. I was able to go out to school, head to team sports, go to restaurants and shopping, hang out with friends, etc. all independently. When I went to college, all of my suburban friends hadn't done too much of any of that, because being in the suburbs before driving age requires a parent available to be your cha…

As someone who raised three children in Manhattan, walking and public transit are fine with small children. Biking, while a great source of recreation, is simply not an option for transportation with small children. And the ability to fall back on a cabs or Uber on rare occasions is also sometimes necessary. That being said, at an older age, I never had to take my children anywhere. Like you said, they walked, rode o…

You can get bike trailers for very cheap that carry small kids.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#99

Post by benj111 » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #87

benj111 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, is that car orientated cities tend to grow out, rather than densify. So you never get the critical mass, where transit becomes required.

You cannot actually say that. non car oriented cities have been growing for hundreds of years, while car oriented cities only for about 80. You could well be right, but we will all be dead before we can actually state it with confidence.

Look at a 1900 city that was 80 years old, you will find it significantly denser, you can't have a 50 mile wide city, when the main mode of transport is a horse.

Northern British industrial cities fit into that age bracket at the turn of the century. Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle weren't spread out at that time.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#100

Post by SystemOut » Tue, Jan 22, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

I don't understand why Americans love their cars so much.

I grew up in Oklahoma and you pretty much have to have a car. Huge amount of land, not many people. Virtually no public transportation.

I moved to the Bay Area back in 2000 and car-pooled for exactly one year of that time and then took BART the other 16 years before moving to Chicago. Even though I like driving I really hate traffic. Why would I sit in traffic when I can read/sleep/work/etc. It was cheaper as well. I wouldn't even talk about a different job unless they were within reasonable distance to a BART station.

I moved to Chicago recently and now take Metra (commuter train) and then walk 15 minutes. It's a little sucky in winter (today was 16 F, Friday is expected to be -6 F in the morning - dress in layers and have warm boots). Even then, I wouldn't drive. The cost, the time, the potential for accidents just aren't worth it to me.

I get why people drive in rural areas. You pretty much have to. But I don't know why folks don't push for mass transit more in cities. Cars are so expensive and monopolize your entire time getting to/from somewhere. I tried car pooling and really didn't like it since I'm essentially trapped with the same people every day. Mass transit can be crowded but I can still read or listen to audio books if I don't have a seat. But cars are ingrained in so much of the culture here plus I think a lot of people won't admit it but just don't like being around other people.