Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who is "you"? The people we're afraid of manipulating .COM control the DNS. Google can't "map .com to another key". Their option would be to leave .COM ; that is the gun DNSSEC would give to the USG to hold against Google's head.
You is firefox/chrome/etc. Yes you can. The ownership of .com is not as exclusive/protected as .xxx or xxx.com. Thus the firefox/chrome/etc can map it to anyone they feel. Considering so many high value .com subnames, .com can be transferred to neutral party or even dnsroot. USG do not own ".com" string. No one does. Just like ".".
A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
91–100 of 104 posts
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's a story about a DNS hijacking attack unprecedented in scale for which DNSSEC is powerless, and your conclusion is that DNSSEC is an important priority. If you believe control of the DNS is straightforward without DNSSEC, and that control of the DNS is all you need to get an X.509 certificate issued, go get a GOOGLE.COM certificate misissued. Or FACEBOOK.COM. If you actually manage to do it (you won't), turn th…
Thomas' frothing at the mouth is inevitable because this is yet another opportunity for him to insist that DNSSEC is bad, but let's inject some realism. This is a story about how some unspecified number of sites claim they were "hijacked" over two years but in which all the actual evidence available says they're just idiots whose registrar account password was stolen. "Iran" is mentioned, but to be honest "Script kid…
1. An incivility directed at me.
2. Another incivility directed as the people whose sites were hijacked.
3. The concession that a misissuance of GOOGLE.COM or FACEBOOK.COM would be detected and unlikely to be successful.
4. The claim that that's only true for sites like GOOGLE.COM and FACEBOOK.COM without further refinement or evidence.
5. Five paragraphs of irrelevant detail about the mechanics of Google's response to a misissuance that have nothing to do with his or my argument.
6. A repeat of the concession from (3).
7. A final claim that a CA getting killed, as Google recently did to the largest, best-known CA in the market, is a "Hollywood Action Thriller style sequence of events", to which I will only respond, check out "First Man", it's great, and a much more interesting show than watching Google respond to misissuance.
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#93This is the problem with quickie SSL cert issuance from "Let's Encrypt". If it took 10 days of consistent domain resolution to get an SSL cert, this wouldn't be happening.
The attack is based on compromising control of the victim’s domain. What’s to stop someone in control of a domain putting records up for 10 days? It’d still happen, just be a delay between compromising the domain and getting the cert is all.
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thomas' frothing at the mouth is inevitable because this is yet another opportunity for him to insist that DNSSEC is bad, but let's inject some realism. This is a story about how some unspecified number of sites claim they were "hijacked" over two years but in which all the actual evidence available says they're just idiots whose registrar account password was stolen. "Iran" is mentioned, but to be honest "Script kid…
This response breaks down as follows: 1. An incivility directed at me. 2. Another incivility directed as the people whose sites were hijacked. 3. The concession that a misissuance of GOOGLE.COM or FACEBOOK.COM would be detected and unlikely to be successful. 4. The claim that that's only true for sites like GOOGLE.COM and FACEBOOK.COM without further refinement or evidence. 5. Five paragraphs of irrelevant detail abo…
Eventually detection is almost certain, but whether it's "successful" would depend very much on what somebody was doing with it and why.
We have some examples to work with in analysing this, where certificates for Facebook or Google names were issued at various times without Facebook or Google knowing about it - and maybe I'll do that analysis later, but for now I want to focus on your Hollywood Action Thriller scenario.
Google did not "kill" the "largest best-known CA in the market".
Back in January 2017 Andrew Ayer wrote to m.d.s.policy about some certificates Symantec had issued for names like example.com (sic) which Andrew had verified were not asked for by example.com's legitimate owners. This gradually spiralled, with Mozilla producing a fairly substantial document listing well over a dozen distinct problems, both newly discovered and dating back a little way, with Symantec. Overall the impression we got was that Symantec management were not delivering the oversight role needed to ensure their CA achieved what a relying party should expect.
Symantec management didn't like where this was going and tried to "go over our heads". I have no idea whether this worked for Microsoft and Apple, and for me there isn't anyone "over my head", but at Google it appears to have made things worse.
In summer 2017 Google's plan asked Symantec to replace their infrastructure and institute bottom-up change to their organisation in order to restore our confidence in the CA. For practical reasons (it's hard to stall your customers for perhaps 1-2 years while you fix things) Symantec would have needed to continue selling certificates during the period when we did not trust their management to operate a CA, and so they'd need to find another large CA to provide us with the assurances we need while retaining Symantec (or Thawte, Verisign, etcetera, all brands of Symantec) branding.
Symantec negotiated with DigiCert to provide this capability over summer 2017 (very small Certificate Authorities would not have been able to practically do what was needed) but at some point during that negotiation they pivoted to instead selling the business to DigiCert.
Once the initial agreement existed in October 2017, DigiCert and Symantec sought permission to go ahead, and received it on some simple conditions (Mozilla's concern was that this might be something akin to a "reverse take over" in which Symantec would dodge the intended management changes and instead seize a new brand, key people at DigiCert were able to assure us that this was not going to happen), then all the usual business stuff happened, and in parallel DigiCert began building a new issuance infrastructure for the ex-Symantec brands, more or less as they would have under the original concept but with them keeping the profits.
In practical terms Symantec chose to exit the CA business a bit less than a year after Andrew's original post to m.d.s.policy, after many months of discussion across about all the issues raised.
Now, if you want you can speculate about how _hard_ it is for incompetent and untrustworthy people to become competent and trustworthy, but Symantec decided they weren't interested in that path so we'll never know. Nobody killed them, they decided they weren't interested in reform.
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
This response breaks down as follows: 1. An incivility directed at me. 2. Another incivility directed as the people whose sites were hijacked. 3. The concession that a misissuance of GOOGLE.COM or FACEBOOK.COM would be detected and unlikely to be successful. 4. The claim that that's only true for sites like GOOGLE.COM and FACEBOOK.COM without further refinement or evidence. 5. Five paragraphs of irrelevant detail abo…
> misissuance of GOOGLE.COM or FACEBOOK.COM would be detected and unlikely to be successful Eventually detection is almost certain, but whether it's "successful" would depend very much on what somebody was doing with it and why. We have some examples to work with in analysing this, where certificates for Facebook or Google names were issued at various times without Facebook or Google knowing about it - and maybe I'll…
Nobody cares who wrote to m.d.s.policy about the misissuance or the precise dynamics of Symantec getting out of the CA business --- though surely you'll want to claim otherwise to preserve the notion that you've rebutted me.
The simple facts:
* Symantec was a full thirty percent all of TLS certificates in 2015.
* Google was made aware (through multiple channels) of misissuance.
* Google arranged with Mozilla to distrust Symantec.
* Symantec is now out of the CA business.
If you're trying to claim that Symantec is out of the CA business because it simply wanted to be, and so somehow gracefully exited by selling to Digicert, no, that is not what happened.
Otherwise, none of the detail you're offering has anything to do with this thread.
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
> misissuance of GOOGLE.COM or FACEBOOK.COM would be detected and unlikely to be successful Eventually detection is almost certain, but whether it's "successful" would depend very much on what somebody was doing with it and why. We have some examples to work with in analysing this, where certificates for Facebook or Google names were issued at various times without Facebook or Google knowing about it - and maybe I'll…
This is just more irrelevant detail. Your essential rhetorical strategy here is to concede the argument I've made, but pretend otherwise by marshaling hundreds of words of details that don't address the point you're claiming to rebut. Nobody cares who wrote to m.d.s.policy about the misissuance or the precise dynamics of Symantec getting out of the CA business --- though surely you'll want to claim otherwise to prese…
I've explained this is ludicrously far from reality, spelling everything out so that people can see this imaginary lightning fast reaction doesn't exist. Would the GOOGLE.COM certificate itself get revoked? Yeah, probably. Might even happen the same day if you're lucky.
Would anything at all happen to the CA, ever? Probably not, though it would depend on what exactly the sequence of events was. If it did, as we saw with Symantec it would take months to decide what that should be, and it's very unlikely to be a complete distrust.
Your scenario is something that belongs in a thriller, I gave a nice example where a Vernor Vinge novel does almost exactly this, in a fictional future California, and I explained that er, no, that's not how it works. You are welcome to keep living in a dream world, but if you're going to threaten people with imaginary consequences for doing things you don't like, maybe say you'll launch a fireball at them with your mind or something so nobody thinks you're talking about the real world.
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is just more irrelevant detail. Your essential rhetorical strategy here is to concede the argument I've made, but pretend otherwise by marshaling hundreds of words of details that don't address the point you're claiming to rebut. Nobody cares who wrote to m.d.s.policy about the misissuance or the precise dynamics of Symantec getting out of the CA business --- though surely you'll want to claim otherwise to prese…
Your claim was that Google would "kill the CA you got it from" if somebody obtains a certificate for the name GOOGLE.COM and that they'd need to "turn the timer on your iPhone on so we can measure how long it takes" with "no notification". I've explained this is ludicrously far from reality, spelling everything out so that people can see this imaginary lightning fast reaction doesn't exist. Would the GOOGLE.COM certi…
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#98The "clever trick" seems to be: previously compromised the login credentials for the administration panel of the target’s DNS provider or previously compromised domain registrar or ccTLD Unless I'm missing something, given either of those things, doesn't take much cleverness...
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, yeah. So many on HN has this mindset. Criminals just whip up credit cards like it's nothing. They don't. It's noisy to use some grandma's credit card to buy a cert for buttsnstuff.ca when she donates to her local church five times a month. Almost all criminals are fucking dumb or even if they're smart they fuck up before they're good and land themselves in jail. Like at least 98% of them. HTTPS is a tire fire.…
Criminals who hijack websites do in fact whip up credit cards "like it's nothing". A huge chunk of abuse attempts on websites that process transactions with credit cards is performed simply to bulk-verify stolen cards . Not even to buy things with the cards; just as a sort of scammer mapreduce to see which of their zillion cards work. The idea that credit card forms are a form of defense in depth is lunacy.
Most criminals are dumb opportunists.
Re: A DNS hijacking wave is targeting companies at an almost unprecedented scale
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
You is firefox/chrome/etc. Yes you can. The ownership of .com is not as exclusive/protected as .xxx or xxx.com. Thus the firefox/chrome/etc can map it to anyone they feel. Considering so many high value .com subnames, .com can be transferred to neutral party or even dnsroot. USG do not own ".com" string. No one does. Just like ".".
Your claim here is that a browser vendor could somehow fork the DNS and use its own .COM? Explain how that could possibly work.
Lets say .com gets mismanaged. Community is infurious. firefox/chrome/etc demands that . remap .com to new more trustable entity. If . does not. firefox/chrome/etc then remap . to new more trustable entity, because .com must be as trustable as ., because .com is that important. New . give back ownership of all tlds to their previous owners. Except for .com. .com goes to the more trustable entity as intended. New .com then does again similar import of all good xxx.com.
In this whole incident, no one loses the ownership of their names except for .com and possibly . .
Now no gov can touch *.com. Though its different for cctld. Those are owned by their respective govs. Same goes for gtld. But no one gets to mess with . .com .org .net.