What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#91

Post by slavik81 » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

opencl wrote: post #50

nugator wrote: post #7

As a European I'm interested in knowing what most Americans thinks about this (their food has additives that is forbidden in Europe). Is there a feeling of Europeans being too cautious or would you like to have the same rules?

At least some of the bans seem overly cautious. For example looking at the first item on the list, KBrO3 aka potassium bromate used as a flour additive. KBrO3 is a demonstrated carcinogen but it converts almost completely to KBr during the baking process. Straight from the paper[1] that seems to have been the basis of the ban, "adverse effects are not evident in animals fed bread-based diets made from flour treated w…

Lots of people eat raw dough. Licking the beaters is a tradition. If it's carcinogenic when uncooked, that really should have a warning so that people can ensure they prepare it properly. Though, apparently I don't need to worry about that, because it's banned in Canada.

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#92

Post by skh » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #88

skh wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your definition of safe does not correspond to most peoples’ definition when it comes to food. Safe, in this context for most people, means safe for general consumption. Unsafe means that the product causes harm in just about everyone who consumes it.

I'll agree with that wrt to Celiacs, but not the broader point. Many of the people that follow the Paleo diet (which is no small contingency) believe that wheat in general is indeed not safe.

I doubt you can find a credible source to say that wheat is poisonous or otherwise causes harm in the way that most people associated that word as it pertains to food. It may not be healthy and some people may think it’s better to eat other things but they don’t think it kills people or otherwise seriously harms a person.

But even if you are right as it pertains to wheat your claim is that no food can be deemed safe. That’s a big claim and one that is very hard to support. We know some foods are safe (in the general sense of the term).

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#93

Post by skh » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #82

skh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market provides a strong incentive here as well not to poison your customers. The history of corporate malfeasance and the desire of people to optimize for short term gain versus long term gain indicates that your view is not supported by reality. For example see the cigarette industry and how it deliberately made its products addictive and more dangerous.

The history of corporate responsibility and the desire of many other people to optimize for long term viability and survival does indicate that my view is supported by reality. Your implication that because one or several persons (or companies) did something wrong, therefore all of mankind is bad/evil is fallacious. Because a neighbor of mine is a thief or a murderer, does not make all neighbors thiefs and murderers.…

The premise of your second paragraph is not supported by what I wrote. I’ve made no claims about every corporation (entity/person/whatever). I just pointed out that some corporations are incentivized to do wrong and thus relying on market forces is not a good idea.

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#94

Post by freedomben » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

skh wrote: post #89

freedomben wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of corporate responsibility and the desire of many other people to optimize for long term viability and survival does indicate that my view is supported by reality. Your implication that because one or several persons (or companies) did something wrong, therefore all of mankind is bad/evil is fallacious. Because a neighbor of mine is a thief or a murderer, does not make all neighbors thiefs and murderers.…

I suggest you have things backwards. There are lots of examples of corporations and people doing the right thing when incetivized by market forces. There are lots of examples of corporation and people doing the wrong thing when incentivized by market forces. The conjunction of these two facts ought to lead you to the conclusion that we should not rely on the market for incentivization against corporate malfeasance an…

Ok, I think we're actually a lot closer to agreement than it would seem. I think you've zeroed in on the the last sentence in my paragraph:

> Constant evaluation, testing, and liability for people/companies that knowingly use dangerous or harmful ingredients can go a long way here. In fact often times it's the only way broader datasets can be gathered. The market provides a strong incentive here as well not to poison your customers.

as my one prescription, when in fact it is not. It's just a piece of the puzzle. In fact I agree with this statement of yours:

> Society, in the form of government, needs to be vigilant against wrongdoing and in the case of food we ought not rely on market forces to prevent bad actors from unleashing their bad intentions on society.

I also may have over-read into your reply that you don't believe the market has any ability to disincentivize bad behavior, which after reading your latest reply may not be the case. Please correct me if I'm not summarizing your point accurately, but it seems you agree that markets do incentivize good behavior, but that it isn't perfect and therefore governments should have a role in ensuring people (and corporations) don't misbehave. If that's an accurate summary of your position, then I agree with that. We may disagree on what optimal intervention levels look like, but we could at least agree on the broader point :-)

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#95

Post by Someone1234 » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

peterstjohn wrote: post #79

Someone1234 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you can find the new style in Europe now too. They're moving away from the in-egg version everywhere.

Any evidence that Ferrero is planning to drop Kinder Surprise?

You're asking for evidence of something nobody claimed. I simply stated that the US style Kinder eggs have appeared in Europe and are for sale.

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#96

Post by chrischen » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

lj3 wrote: post #25

nugator wrote: post #7

As a European I'm interested in knowing what most Americans thinks about this (their food has additives that is forbidden in Europe). Is there a feeling of Europeans being too cautious or would you like to have the same rules?

I would love to if the US had the same food quality laws that European countries have. By HN standards, I'm a right wing nutcase and am in favor of as small a government as we can stand, but our food is killing us. Bread has sugar in it. If you want bread without sugar in it, you must either pay more for the organic stuff or make it yourself. If you want bread without any additives or preservatives at all, you must b…

You can buy unflavored white/whole grain bread from all supermarkets.

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#97

Post by nugator » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

wcoenen wrote: post #65

nugator wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any examples? (Genuinely interested)

In the US, unwashed eggs aren't allowed. In the EU, it's the other way around; eggs must be unwashed. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2012/10/25/why-am... https://www.businessinsider.com/why-europeans-dont-refrigera...

Super interesting, did not know this and looked it up (I'm a Swede). Washing eggs is NOT illegal in the EU (at least in Sweden) if your washing them at a certified plant. Washing them the wrong way can spread bacteria through the shell of the egg. So a farmer without the certified plant is not allowed to wash the eggs. Washed eggs are marked as washed to the consumer and all eggs I've ever bought in stores here have been washed.

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#98

Post by freedomben » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

skh wrote: post #92

freedomben wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree with that wrt to Celiacs, but not the broader point. Many of the people that follow the Paleo diet (which is no small contingency) believe that wheat in general is indeed not safe.

I doubt you can find a credible source to say that wheat is poisonous or otherwise causes harm in the way that most people associated that word as it pertains to food. It may not be healthy and some people may think it’s better to eat other things but they don’t think it kills people or otherwise seriously harms a person. But even if you are right as it pertains to wheat your claim is that no food can be deemed safe.…

> But even if you are right as it pertains to wheat your claim is that no food can be deemed safe

I think you've confused me with will4274 who said:

> It's impossible to prove that a food item is safe. The two categories are known to be bad and not know to be bad.

Regarding the subject tho, I think definitions of "safe" and also who would comprise a "credible source" are probably more to the crux of the discussion.

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#99

Post by freedomben » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #84

freedomben wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nature of bans makes it pretty difficult to specifically name items that I feel banning them was a disservice :-) But here's an example: Cannabis. Why? There's now tremendous evidence that the ban was misguided, and that there are very real medicinal properties that benefit the human body and help control inflammation. When banning it (and making it a schedule 1 substance) research was severely hampered and in ma…

Banning ingredients for food is a very specific kind of ban. I'm against the war on drugs, but I'm totally for banning strongly psychoactive ingredients from food - cannabis should be a controlled substance.

Many people consume cannabis specifically as an ingredient in food. But at a broader level I think it's unproductive to limit categories to "banned in food" v. "banned", since that's a very arbitrary distinction. Also:

> but I'm totally for banning strongly psychoactive ingredients from food - cannabis should be a controlled substance.

That reads to me as contradictory. banning != controlled substance

Re: What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?

#100

Post by skh » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #98

skh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you can find a credible source to say that wheat is poisonous or otherwise causes harm in the way that most people associated that word as it pertains to food. It may not be healthy and some people may think it’s better to eat other things but they don’t think it kills people or otherwise seriously harms a person. But even if you are right as it pertains to wheat your claim is that no food can be deemed safe.…

> But even if you are right as it pertains to wheat your claim is that no food can be deemed safe I think you've confused me with will4274 who said: > It's impossible to prove that a food item is safe. The two categories are known to be bad and not know to be bad. Regarding the subject tho, I think definitions of "safe" and also who would comprise a "credible source" are probably more to the crux of the discussion.

Yes, I thought you made the comment that will4274 made.