How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#91

Post by wolfgke » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

atVelocet wrote: post #33

wolfgke wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I've always seen the original Xbox as the spiritual successor to the Dreamcast. In what sense? The architecture between these two consoles is IMHO quite different.

But it really was. Sega and Microsoft worked closely together or why do you think they implented the Windows CE option? Also all Sega arcades afterwards shipped with Xbox hardware.

Windows CE was ported to a lot of processor architectures at that time. Its architecture is quite different from the Windows NT line. To quote Wikipedia on this

> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_Embedded_...

"Unlike Windows Embedded Standard, which is based on Windows NT, Windows Embedded Compact uses a different hybrid kernel."

I am also pretty sure that Windows CE's architecture is quite different from the OS running on the XBox, but cannot give a quotable source on this. At least for the Xbox 360 and XBox One, I am pretty sure that I have read that their kernel is actually not so dissimilar from the kernel used in the NT line. The difference between the Windows NT line and the XBox 360/One OS rather lies in the software running above the kernel.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#92

Post by lukeschlather » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #82

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

"The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good)." If memory serves me... and it doesn't always terribly well, but still... I think you can make the even stronger argument that by the time the piracy was widespread and convenient…

> It took a while to get to the point where you could torrent an arbitrary game

Especially so, given that the BitTorrent protocol hadn't even been designed when the Dreamcast was officially discontinued.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#93

Post by bliblah » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

>The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles

The dreamcast was forward thinking in many ways (Built in Modem, MMO console games, 3D graphics that could rival arcades) but the lack of a real system selling game was very noticeable.

> if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games

This is very true, every time I go to south america I still see street vendors selling PS2 bootleg games!

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#94

Post by notafraudster » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

> The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good).

This is correct. In the gaming space this is called "attach rate". Consoles tend to have higher attach rates than handhelds (because, for instance, multiple children in a family own a handheld but share software, while a console is typically one-per-family). Attach rates generally go up over time because the geometric mean of owner-weeks generally goes up over time -- there are some exceptions when hardware sales take off as a rocket like in the first 2-3 years of the Nintendo Wii.

When Dreamcast software stopped in the US around 2003, it had an attach rate of about 4 according to NPD figures, which is fairly standard for a console that had been around for 2 years.

That's not to say there wasn't widespread piracy or whatever, it just means that as you note we don't see an obvious absence of software sales where there ought be software sales.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#95

Post by crankylinuxuser » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

bliblah wrote: post #93

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

>The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles The dreamcast was forward thinking in many ways (Built in Modem, MMO console games, 3D graphics that could rival arcades) but the lack of a real system selling game was very noticeable. > if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games This is very true, every time I go…

I helped my sister find DC downloadable games. And unfortunately, 95% of all the games available were 1-on-1 fighting games. The few others were simulators (Crazy Taxi, flying games).

The only RPG I can think of was Phantasy Star Online. It was down for at least a decade when we downloaded games.

I look at PlayStation, and it was RPGs galore. And while there was shovelware, there were all sorts of games from every genre.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#96

Post by ThrowawayB7 » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #95

bliblah wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles The dreamcast was forward thinking in many ways (Built in Modem, MMO console games, 3D graphics that could rival arcades) but the lack of a real system selling game was very noticeable. > if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games This is very true, every time I go…

I helped my sister find DC downloadable games. And unfortunately, 95% of all the games available were 1-on-1 fighting games. The few others were simulators (Crazy Taxi, flying games). The only RPG I can think of was Phantasy Star Online. It was down for at least a decade when we downloaded games. I look at PlayStation, and it was RPGs galore. And while there was shovelware, there were all sorts of games from every ge…

Grandia II? Skies of Arcadia? Shenmue? There were a number of good RPGs for the Dreamcast.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#97

Post by notyourwork » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #92

jerf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good)." If memory serves me... and it doesn't always terribly well, but still... I think you can make the even stronger argument that by the time the piracy was widespread and convenient…

> It took a while to get to the point where you could torrent an arbitrary game Especially so, given that the BitTorrent protocol hadn't even been designed when the Dreamcast was officially discontinued.

BitTorrent wasn’t how pirated material was distributed in those days. DCC over Irc and FTP were widely used at this time.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#98

Post by oarsinsync » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

DCKing wrote: post #88

pmarin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sega started porting many of their new arcade games to the Xbox. Consequently former Dreamcast users who wanted to play the new arcade games at home bought the Xbox.

A Sega exec tried to push Microsoft to make the Xbox backwards compatible with the Dreamcast even [1], which Microsoft refused mostly because they didn't want to support online infrastructure for titles that used it. The original Xbox seemed to have been considered to be the favored successor to the Dreamcast by Sega at least at one point. Then again, Sega's main initial portwork was focused on the GameCube. The Drea…

> They also brought originally-for-Dreamcast titles Super Monkey Ball ... to the GameCube exclusively

Super Monkey Ball was on the Xbox too. I was very happy when I discovered that, and even more so when it was playable on the X360.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#99

Post by turtlebits » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

DownGoat wrote: post #62

jsiepkes wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the hack had a really low entry barrier. As in; no hardware modifications needed. You could just download an ISO from the net and you were good to go with your unmodified Dreamcast. In contrast the other consoles in that era Xbox, PlayStation, etc. all needed hardware modifications in order to run copied content.

There was actually a trick for the PlayStation that allowed you to play pirated games without any hardware mods. It involved starting a game with the CD case open, and using your finger to stop the CD from spinning at certain points. I was quite young at the time and never mastered the method, and we got a hardware mod for the console at a later point.

Wow, that brings back memories. IIRC, you actually had to (while booting/disc spinning) pull out the a retail disc at a certain point, put in your burned disc, and do that exchange once more.

It wasn't hard, just getting the timing down.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#100

Post by surge » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #82

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

"The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good)." If memory serves me... and it doesn't always terribly well, but still... I think you can make the even stronger argument that by the time the piracy was widespread and convenient…

I remember clearly that most people were holding off for a PS2, despite the fact that the initial release of games on the PS2 for that first year had graphics that were actually sub-par compared to the DC because it was so difficult to program for and had a weak line up of games that first year compared to what the DC had the first week it was out (a Sonic game and Soul Calibur).

I ended up owning both, but I got more mileage out of my DC that year or two I owned it then I did from the PS2 for a while (I don't think the PS2 really hit its stride until the 2nd year it was out).