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Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

nytimes.com

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Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#91

Post by izacus »

esc861 wrote: post #47
gbear605 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t they able to get the ip just by connecting to any server?

Yes, although they won't get the whole Wi-Fi scan list, which means no fine grained triangulation, and also no BSSID, but it's definitely imperfect. It's also very frustrating if you are using the Wi-Fi APIs for legitimate purposes. Having to explain to a user why you need location permissions in order to set up a Wi-Fi peripheral isn't easy.

That doesn't matter at all if your request is being location stamped because it came from a Starbucks / your home WiFi IP.

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#92

Post by 20938ny9 »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #74

i want my location history - for me. i just don't want it sold to third parties. if google will store it foe me and map my walks etc, great- but i don't want them to sell it or even use it much. and i don't think that's a lot to ask. want me to pay for the 50cents storage costs ? sure.

You're the product. If you want your location history, you should buy an inexpensive GPS unit and manually dump it onto your computer periodically. Why would you upload something into the cloud or allow some company to manage it for you and expect privacy in this day?

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#93

Post by random878 »

javajosh wrote: post #57
random878 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would respectfully disagree. It is not acceptable to roughly the amount of people (and I include myself) who make a deliberate and self conscious decision to oppose it. This is a small, small group. I have a phone with Replicant OS, which puts me within a niche group of an already niche group (those willing to install alternative OS and strip Google on their phone). In a wider computing sense - what percentage of H…

Holy cow, you are using a phone without GPS ? https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Replica...

I previously used a Galaxy S3 with Replicant OS. I also have a Sony phone with Lineage OS (with no Google). I now use a dumbphone as I don't particularly like smartphones. This decision is less driven by security and more a desire to ringfence time away from tech.

Personally, I was never bothered by the lack of GPS. I'm fine with offline maps. I have a satnav in the car which is the only time I really need minute-by-minute navigation.

I found the lack of WiFi to be a bigger issue. Mostly as I like podcasts. There is/was an option to use a WiFi adapter which works well if you plan in advance (i.e. use it when downloading a bunch of apps when setting up, or downloading a bunch of podcasts in one go).

Replicant OS is a really neat project, and they deserve some praise.

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#94

Post by makecheck »

pookieinc wrote: post #31

What is the correct way to regulate this? The problem is that, from small business to mammoth company, there is no codified, unified, agreed upon manifesto when it comes to handling data at any level. A "Constitution" of sorts that explains the rights and / or wrongs of the data usage of the average user. Somewhere where a user can look at a document, see which company falls where on the spectrum, decide if they are…

The way to do it is to push for new data formats where the inherent value of even “leaked” information is going to be limited by the format (e.g. expires in some form, and/or must always be combined with some new recently-refreshes data to be considered valid).

Unfortunately, something of that magnitude in this age would probably require the cooperation of large entities like Google and Facebook. Guess who profits from the current leaky model.

Honestly, Apple may be just about the only one capable of shifting the tide. They’re big, they claim a privacy focus, and they’ve delivered some (e.g. Apple Pay, iMessage). If they could come up with more secure technological replacements for the things that are currently leaked by apps, we might have a chance.

The “one time card” approach of Apple Pay seems like the basis for such a system. For example: stop giving apps “my location” tied specifically to me, instead give them “location of unspecified user” where that token goes away after one app transaction.

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#95

Post by nerdbaggy »

code4tee wrote: post #16

“We’re not doing anything not disclosed in our terms of service.” is rapidly becoming a no longer acceptable answer to consumers. Don’t tell me a weather app needs to know my location all the time to give me the best weather info then sell my location to the highest bidder. Don’t tell me that buried in some 20 pages of leagalese in your Ts&Cs is some vague references that make this “legal.”

Not sure if I agree. Dark Sky likes to have your location all the time because it enriches the data for everybody else. The promise not to ever sell our data, but they do say they are approached usually at least once a week about selling it https://blog.darksky.net/location-privacy/

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#96

Post by mentat »

afpx wrote: post #90
kasey_junk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the hedge funds are by definition not insiders? They are literally not using non-public corporate data at all. Insider trading laws don’t exist to make sure there isn’t information assymetry, the market is all about that assymetry. Insider trading laws are about insiders stealing from other shareholders.

Well, it is non-public data. I once spoke with a lawyer to see if I could legally use location data to do the same thing (for instance, it’s easy to correlate changes in activity at certain retailers with quarterly earnings), and I was told it’s risky.

It is not true in the United States, other countries differ: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-03/inside...

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#97

Post by inetknght »

random878 wrote: post #86
inetknght wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contrary to popular opinion, people are not ignorant to the behaviour of tech giants - they just don't care enough to stop. Contrary to your* opinion, people do care enough to stop but they don't know how. Tech giants have insinuated themselves into literally every aspect of their lives by abusing the lack of knowledge of the users. Now, they don't see a way out without drastic change. How can you get a job if you…

>people do care enough to stop but they don't know how I'd guess the vast majority of HN users will be primarily users of Windows/Mac OS and proprietary software. Many HN users will use GMail, Google Maps, Google Play Services... an so on. Are we going to pretend that your average HN user doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices? Personally, I'd prefer to credit them with the intelligence to have ma…

> Are we going to pretend that your average HN user doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices?

I am not pretending that the average HN doesn't understand the pros/cons of their software choices. I own my own domain and with it I provide my own email, calendar, and the like. It's nowhere near as simple as it could or should be. It increases the barrier to entry in both cognition and technology required while hiding the actual cost of the decision to offload that data to a third party.

> They still continue to use those services, despite being aware, because they simply aren't sufficiently motivated to change their habits.

Again: bubble. Is it that they're insufficiently motivated to change their habits? Or is it that they've been trained (whether personally, or educationally, or through another employer) for something easier and haven't been given a solution just as easy?

> GMail is familiar, and hence easy, so why switch to ProtonMail (for example)?

For me, personally: both of them are off-site and not owned by me. For many others: they don't know of ProtonMail. For many of them: they can't afford ProtonMail.

> There are many, many successful people who can function perfectly well without the latest iPhone.

I wasn't talking just about phones. Computers, even your employer's computer, can track you; my employer uses GSuite.

> Please don't resort to ad hominem attacks on Hacker News.

I don't believe this was an ad hominem attack; I believe it was an observation.

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#98

Post by froindt »

afpx wrote: post #90
kasey_junk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the hedge funds are by definition not insiders? They are literally not using non-public corporate data at all. Insider trading laws don’t exist to make sure there isn’t information assymetry, the market is all about that assymetry. Insider trading laws are about insiders stealing from other shareholders.

Well, it is non-public data. I once spoke with a lawyer to see if I could legally use location data to do the same thing (for instance, it’s easy to correlate changes in activity at certain retailers with quarterly earnings), and I was told it’s risky.

Non-public and insider are two different concepts. I could send a satellite to space, take pictures of parking lots, count cars, and it'd be a pretty decent indicator to the relative success of a retailer. Add some other signals into the model and it'd probably be good.

I don't need to give the public access to my satellite images. But if I wanted to make a subscription service for 100k/month, I could. It would be non-public, but not insider.

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#99

Post by zanny »

bad_user wrote: post #9

iOS now forcing "While Using" option on all apps is the greatest thing ever. Before this, some apps where forcing the "Always" option on users. Uber and Waze come to mind. iOS also gives you a warning from time to time about apps using your location in the background. I think iOS right now has the best location management. --- People are surprised when seeing the Activity section in Google's account details, then fre…

I at least get a substantial value add to my life having Google track me everywhere. It might be overly sentimental but being able to see everywhere I've been in the last ~seven years on Maps feels to me like one of the great innovations Google has made. If people accept Google will sell that data to subsidize the cost of persisting it you get a permanent record of everywhere you've gone. I think its cool to have.

Its something you can probably build off the shelf - log position with durations, draw vectors on Open Street Maps. But Google has already given me the convenience in exchange for my privacy. Its one of the rare times I'm alright with that tradeoff.

Re: Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers and even hedge funds

#100

Post by ballenf »

Despegar wrote: post #48
bad_user wrote: post #9

iOS now forcing "While Using" option on all apps is the greatest thing ever. Before this, some apps where forcing the "Always" option on users. Uber and Waze come to mind. iOS also gives you a warning from time to time about apps using your location in the background. I think iOS right now has the best location management. --- People are surprised when seeing the Activity section in Google's account details, then fre…

>On GDPR, I've seen people complaining about the high cost for implementing it The bigger cost is to people's privacy, which is hard to quantify and hard for people to articulate why it's necessary. Collection and use of people's data is opaque and not at all transparent. Which is why GDPR and other privacy legislation is needed.

Complaining about the cost of respecting user privacy is like complaining about having to clean up after your company's pollution or carbon emissions.
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