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China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

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Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#91
post #76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it matters what the Chinese government is like that is just a cheap excuse repeatedly used in almost all high tech areas - 1. because the Chinese government is bad, China is not allowed to join projects like the international space station. 2. because the Chinese government is bad, allowing China to have access to any semiconductor techs from the west is not acceptable. 3. because the Chinese government is bad, exp…

I'm not sure what your contention is. Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones.

> I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones.

That is a great idea. Except it's not really what's at play here. If it were, then the US would ban all imports from China, and not just ones where it feels it needs to maintain a strategic advantage. It would also stop supporting Saudis.

I believe what GP is trying to communicate is that US struggle against Chinese government for maintaining top superpower status, thinly veiled as concern for human rights, is unnecessarily hurting Chinese people.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#92
post #80
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese Government is suppressing free speech regarding Tibet, Taiwan, Uyghurs, corruption, forced displacement and plenty of other socially relevant topics. And just as it takes two to tango it takes two to suppress free speech. One party to suppress (in this case literally as there is just one) and another to effectively obey - that's the Chinese society pretty much in its entirety. That means Chinese society i…

It's not Chinese people aren't aware of what the Chinese government is/has been doing. This is why natch's comments have received so many negative feedbacks. natch doesn't give any evidences to support his arguments. Instead, he just bluntly said that 'Slaughterbots would excite them' as if he has seen it in person. This is an insult on the intelligence and moral standard of Chinese student or common man. I know what…

First of all the practical difference between believing in something and behaving as if one believes in that is often neglectable. Especially when either of both things can be said about the majority of a society.

Secondly, nobody is immoral, nobody is vengeful or senseless - but having said that - the enemies of the state of course do not deserve moral standards as they don't adhere by those standards themselves ... "just watch the news if you want to know how many children they killed with their latest terror attack!".

The truth is - everybody loves slaughter bots as long as the right people get slaughtered - and who is that? Well, for the majority it's those labelled bad in the information sources they consume ... and are Chinese news independent? No, they aren't.

The Americans and Israelis love their drones - which aren't philosophically different from slaughter bots - and as long as those remove terrorists or taliban nobody would question those.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#93
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what your background experience is that causes you to take this stance that they are not all brain-washed automatons? Is this based on Mainland Chinese you've met in the US? Or in Mainland China?

It's probably based on the fact that they're human beings. Since when does progressivism mean "try to understand and respect other cultures, except the Chinese, fuck them"? When did that last part get added?

When the Soviet Union collapsed and China became the last political power playing on the same level as the US.

You'd think that after all the recorded historical examples of populations being duped into believing some other group of people is subhuman - countless cases since the Ancient Rome to the XX century, all of them discussed on history lessons in western schools - you'd think people would be less willing to accept another round of the same propaganda classifying a whole society as inferior. It's sad that we still can't avoid that trap.

I've been to China and met Chinese people. They're normal. People, like everyone else, with problems like everyone else, with dreams and fears and passions, like everyone else.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#94
post #59

China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons. I think AI alignment is some of the most important work in the world, and I think spreading and translating AI alignment research in China, such as Stuart Russell's work, may well be more important than direct AI-safety research. Because of their huge population and much higher average quantitative ability among Han…

>> China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons

Thats a ridiculous argument: they are 1.5MM, im pretty sure you can find a few milions smart enough who fit the description of the parent comment.

Its not racist or whatnot.. every nation has its smart fanatics

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#95
post #59

China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons. I think AI alignment is some of the most important work in the world, and I think spreading and translating AI alignment research in China, such as Stuart Russell's work, may well be more important than direct AI-safety research. Because of their huge population and much higher average quantitative ability among Han…

> “These kids are all exceptionally bright, but being bright is not enough,” said a BIT professor who was involved in the screening process but asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject.

> “We are looking for other qualities such as creative thinking, willingness to fight, a persistence when facing challenges,” he said. “A passion for developing new weapons is a must … and they must also be patriots.”

I think it's fair to say the students they are recruiting can't have any misgivings about the fact that their projects will have military applications.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whataboutism only really applies to state actors bickering when both are being hypocritical. After all, it was created as a US propaganda term for saying that it is hypocritical for the USSR to propagandise the hypocrisy of the USA, when both governments are hypocrites. Outside of that, it is called making comparisons and it is a completely valid thing to be doing.

It refers to the practice of changing the conversation (often towards accusation of hypocrisy) rather than answering a claim. Especially when the comparison is different in kind or scope, or just plain irrelevant. Making comparisons is valid, but it doesn't make you incapable of responding to the original arguments.

Often it is used to shut down a line of argument when the comparison is entirely valid though.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#97
post #77
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There must be actual Chinese people here on HN. Can any weigh in on the reality of this? It’s a heavy charge to make against an entire population.

I am a Chinese citizen and all my education was in China, from kindergarten to grad school. > China has cultivated in its people a very troubling mental complex centered on national pride and driven by the Century of Humiliation. I’d say this is correct to a small extent — the history lessons in particular, took that stance when it’s covering contents about Chinese history from late Qing dynasty to the end of WW2. Bu…

I'm curious to know if you can speak to how minority populations are discussed or addressed in a historical or modern context? I understand that there is something like 50+ recognized minority groups in China.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#98
post #76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it matters what the Chinese government is like that is just a cheap excuse repeatedly used in almost all high tech areas - 1. because the Chinese government is bad, China is not allowed to join projects like the international space station. 2. because the Chinese government is bad, allowing China to have access to any semiconductor techs from the west is not acceptable. 3. because the Chinese government is bad, exp…

I'm not sure what your contention is. Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones.

> Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive?

I believe it's way too harmful to simply categorize government into "free" vs "bad/corrupt/authoritarian/oppressive". There're a large number of other factors to consider. I agree Chinese government has tons of problems, just like US government has tons of problems of its own, just different.

At the bottom line, Chinese government is making tons of efforts to improve the economy of the country and improve the life of all the citizens. "According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

> Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive?

I agree there're corruption in Chinese government. Anti-corruption is a one of the main focus of Chinese government in the past few years. Moreover, corruption has nothing to do with 'freedom' vs 'non-freedom'. There are way too many heavily corrupted democratic government in the world.

Is it authoritarian? Yes there is only one party in power - the CPC. The party has close to 100 million members throughout the country, which is close to 1/10 of the entire population. You can't possibly consider a party like that to be a single entity. There's also semi-democratic process: People elect representatives and they form National People's Congress - highest organ of state power in China.

Is it oppressive? Well, media censorship is a thing, and if you had to go on the street and protest the government in the same way you'd protest Trump, the government might invite you to "have a talk". But people still talk shit about the government all the time in private and on social media. The comments are likely to get deleted / banned. That sucks, but it is not something that could hugely impact the quality of life of regular citizens. You can still hear lots of dissident voices on the internet, and the government would often respond to that in positive ways.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#99
post #11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is enforcement, not will. With nukes we can have inspectors and we can lock down uranium. Killbots are too diffuse and too multi-use. I'm all for arms control / non-proliferation, but I really don't see how it works for these things. Also, we already have weaponized AI. We have for decades. We're now talking about a matter of degree. I'm far, far more worried about the mass weaponization of civilian syste…

I'm intrigued. What do you need to in order to write your article?

I'm waiting on some academics that study multi-lateral trade agreements to send me the details of their mathematical models, since I think they'll share many of the same aspects.

1. Hard to quantify incentive structures.

2. Chaotic / cascading decisions and adaptations.

3. Growing search space that's influenced by information restriction.

4. Uncertainty of future arrangements and options.

5. Uncertainty of deterrence efficacy.

6. Even some aspects of agency problems.

I've gone through some of the papers out there but, frankly, nothing I'd consider a serious mathematical investigation. I don't need the input data so I thought this would be easy. I only need the math or computer code.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#100
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Chinese citizen and all my education was in China, from kindergarten to grad school. > China has cultivated in its people a very troubling mental complex centered on national pride and driven by the Century of Humiliation. I’d say this is correct to a small extent — the history lessons in particular, took that stance when it’s covering contents about Chinese history from late Qing dynasty to the end of WW2. Bu…

I'm curious to know if you can speak to how minority populations are discussed or addressed in a historical or modern context? I understand that there is something like 50+ recognized minority groups in China.

In a historical context, the minority groups are mostly people lived in different areas. Typically Han was in the central/east region in China, and there were other groups in north/west and sometimes south. There had been lots of wars in the past, and lots of peace as well. The fairly recent Qin dynasty was actually founded by a minority group in the northeast, and they ruled Han along with all other minority groups for hundreds of years. Most minority groups are heavily influenced by culture of Han, whether they controlled large part of China or not. For example, after Qin dynasty controlled the entire China, the emperors inherited plenty of traditions from Han; they started speaking Chinese and learning from classical Han literature; and they influenced Han culture as well. There are exceptions like Genghis Khan -> They occupied China but didn't care about local culture at all, and soon they left.

All the dynasties founded in the region, no matter if it was mostly Han people or minority groups, are considered part of China's history now. Just that Han had much higher weight in history books.

In a modern context, the main theme from textbooks is that all the minority groups live peacefully together and united as one nation, no matter what the history is. This is mostly true in reality, except maybe a small number of people in the west might want separation. You can find people from all minority groups living in large cities in the east of China, where the economy is most advanced. They mostly appear not much different from Han people, even though they might still carry some traditions from their own culture. Sometimes Han people might get curious when they meet someone from a minority group, but mostly they won't treat them any differently.

Being a part minority group is generally a good thing in China -> Among other things, they get bonus points in college entrance exams, which is a very big deal for vast majority of Chinese.

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