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Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

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Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#91

> Men -- long America’s economically privileged gender It depends on how you look at it. Don't get me wrong, men have had lots of privileges, but they have long been expected to work. Those social expectations are rapidly disappearing, and somewhat shifting to women, and we're seeing rates of depression and suicide rise for women in roughly the same time frame. Calling it privileged is a very one-sided way of looking…

> Why take on the same burdens your fathers did when little to none of that existed?

I can only offer my perspective - I take on those burdens because I want what my fathers had. I want a stable family, a wife who is able to stay home and care for and teach our children, a comfortable retirement, and the ability to help both my extended family and my community at large.

Still, I don't disagree with your comment overall. It seems that I am a bit of an outlier among my peers to want those things. I don't blame people for deciding that this path in life isn't worth it to them, and that they'd prefer to walk another.

For that matter, if hadn't met my wife so early in life, I'm not sure I'd be looking to get married and start a family now. I'd probably be living a minimal existence in a van or small RV in California, working at FAANG, and putting back as much of my pay as I could. A few years of that and I'd be financially able to move back to rural America to live a comfortable life and never have to work again.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#92
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're worth what the market is willing to offer you, not what you think you are worth. This is an absurd statement, the market is not a god. It does not have a value system.

> This is an absurd statement, the market is not a god. It does not have a value system. The word "market" is just a convenient tag to refer to a collection of individuals like you and me looking to buy/sell goods and/or services, and deciding what's best for them given the choices available, their priorities, and the information they have. Thus, when anyone refers to what "the market is willing to offer", they are r…

Yeah, but there are two sides to that (voluntary) transaction. The person bidding for labor and the person offering their labor. If the buyer and seller can't agree then the transaction doesn't take place. The value of the labor is subjective.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those that don't have the luxury of having an education combined with training in a relevant skill, that middle ground is just wishful thinking.

Or minimalism, which is becoming a trendy topic on places like YouTube for that reason.

> Or minimalism

No, not really. Economic constrains are the real issue. It makes no difference if a person decides to live spending less if he is never constrained by what he can afford. On the other hand, if someone needs something (say medical care) but can't afford it then there's a problem.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#94

> Men -- long America’s economically privileged gender It depends on how you look at it. Don't get me wrong, men have had lots of privileges, but they have long been expected to work. Those social expectations are rapidly disappearing, and somewhat shifting to women, and we're seeing rates of depression and suicide rise for women in roughly the same time frame. Calling it privileged is a very one-sided way of looking…

I'm looking at a $400 bill after insurance for a 15 minute doctor's visit. Nothing fancy he took my blood pressure and listened to my lungs and sent me on my way. I'm fortunate that I can easily pay this, but what if I was living paycheck to paycheck? It would crush me. When wealth is so fleeting as to be taken away by such a minuscule stroke of bad luck, why would people bother chasing it? I'm literally going to hav…

I think what you're getting at, and several others, is that every opportunity has been squeezed out.

- Go to college? Get massive debt, insecure about losing whatever job you get after. Lots of other people have paper too. Oh and they also want to live near where degree jobs are, just like you.

- Start in the mail room? They don't promote from the mail room anymore.

- Work minimum wage? Everything costs what it needs to cost for you to have zero saving or extra time.

- Buy a house? Houses already cost a lot. In fact every investment asset costs a lot.

- Start a business? Even starting a restaurant is different from a couple of decades ago.

- Learn a trade? This one sounds reasonable to me actually. All that "you must get a degree" has left a hole that plumbers and electricians can fill. But you have to get used to being looked down on. Plus many people use prestige as an indicator of income, so they might not discover there's a reasonable living to be made. Still requires you to apprentice for a bit though.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#95
post #76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If employers have job openings they can't fill, while workers are idle because they won't work so cheap, then shouldn't the market-clearing wage increase? If not, what's preventing it? Other workers will work cheap. See, it doesn't matter what you think your time is worth. The supply of people willing to work is what determines what it is worth. Minimum wage jobs can literally be done by almost anyone who is not me…

The key point is that employers have job openings they can't fill [1]. If you are correct that other workers are willing to work that cheap, then the jobs would be filled. Workers exist but are unwilling to work that cheap, so they're idle while employers have unfilled jobs. Whenever you see a news story that says "employers having difficulties finding qualified workers," you can safely replace that phrase with "empl…

Indeed; they're either unwilling to pay the market rate for the labour _or_ they are unwilling to train.

Any time an employer states that they cannot find a _suitable_ candidate for a position it is an admission that they are unwilling to train.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#96
post #5

> Weary of long days earning minimum wage, he quit his job in a pizzeria in June. He wants new employment but won’t take a gig he’ll hate. So for now, the Pittsburgh native and father to young children is living with his mother and training to become an emergency medical technician, hoping to get on the ladder toward a better life. Perplexing? The opening of this article gives a pretty straightforward answer: people…

It's exactly this.

I'm a member of this group.

I was told growing up by first-generation college graduates that any degree was better than no degree. I had persistent doubts, but was told by those same parents year after year before and during college that "You may not want it now, but you won't regret having it in the future."

So not knowing better and not being told any better by the university I attended, I got a history degree and tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. When I graduated in 2012, I was reluctant to leave the town that I grew up in (where there were no jobs, being essentially only a university town) and could only find service sector work. The same baby boomers that told me to put myself in debt to secure a degree now told me that any job was better than no job at all.

I eventually was able to get a job at a call center after being a temp (twice) at the same corporation. Yet within a year, I hit a hard income cap. In this job that I had worked so hard to secure, I could only pay off my debt over more than a decade throwing all my disposible income at it. And the job was soul-crushing. All my coworkers were warm-bodies that life had shat upon; my bosses were all sociopathic and incompetent PMPs that could barely open Outlook and constantly took the credit for any and all off-paper work that I did. For some reason, I started drinking heavily.

I was fortunate enough to be able to support my wife while she learned how to code and through fate, diligence, and diversity metrics, she was able to secure an IT job. She convinced me to quit soon afterwards and try to follow in her footsteps, but with apparently less favorable odds. Who wants to hire an unemployed self-taught 30-year-old white male with an unstable work history in an entry-level role?

And now, if looking down the barrel of economic obsolescence wasn't enough, I have to deal with baby-boomers, who by their own admission waltzed with ease into careers, constantly looking down on me for not gladly and immediately selling what remains of my youth to pernicious corporations whose five-year plans inevitably include either automating my position or shuttering because of the brick & mortar apocalypse.

Yes, it's a very perplexing hole, this lack of participation.

Our pipedream at this point is for me to be a stay-at-home dad and develop FOSS software when I'm not caregiving or doing home economy, with the eventual goal of buying a farm somewhere where we can both be doing what we really want (i.e. living as ethically as we possibly can in a dystopian hellscape far, far away from the gods of the Marketplace). I don't think this feeling is in the minority.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#97
post #55
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to talk about some gender differences that are true in general, and I could back up with citations if I had the time. But remember everybody is their own special case - things that are true in general for a population don't necessarily describe individuals of that population. 1) Women tend to marry up. An accomplished woman with a great job wants a man with a better job. That shrinks the pool a lot for her!…

While I recognise a lot of truth in this, I don't think there's ever been a time when I'd have wanted to date or marry a woman 20 years my junior. I have some lovely friends in that range, but they're socio-culturally so different from me (as a reasonably successful, well-off middle-aged man) that it's hard to see them as partner material.

Agreed, it's a bit ridiculous. Twenty years is probably too much (especially for a long term relationship) although I do know men who do that.

I went 9 years my junior and it has mostly been a good thing. Especially where starting a family is concerned it has made it so we're not rushed on that decision and can get our finances in order first.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#99
post #82

The part that made me wonder about the millennials in their job search is: > Butcher has a high-school diploma and a resume filled with low-wage jobs from Target and Walmart to a local grocery store. He’s being selective as he searches for new work because he doesn’t want to grind out unhappy hours for unsatisfying compensation. I believe that having a job that you love is a luxury. It is something to look at once ba…

>He’s being selective as he searches for new work because he doesn’t want to grind out unhappy hours for unsatisfying compensation.

I think this is a large part of the issue here. I only have my experience employing millenials to go by, but they're a group that seems to be less focused on compensation and career advancement than generations before them. They're version of the American Dream is also different than generations before them. It's not get job, make money, get a house, have kids, etc. There's nothing wrong with any of that. Society has changed, and the economics have changed.

I graduated college in 1997 with $30k in debt, which was a lot at the time. Now, that'd be below average. I was the only one of my large group of friends that didn't own a house within 5 years of graduation. Contrast that with the cohort of millenials I've managed, and I don't think a single one out of several dozen have owned their own home. It's either not a high priority or seems so out of reach when student loans and the high cost of ownership in this area (Boston) come into play. Sure, they could maybe buy a place in suburbia, but again that's a smaller priority than in was before them.

My tl:dr; for the article is that they're less willing to work "just because" and have different goals than generations before them, and that's hard for people to grok.

Re: Millennial Men Leave Perplexing Hole in Hot U.S. Job Market

#100
post #76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If employers have job openings they can't fill, while workers are idle because they won't work so cheap, then shouldn't the market-clearing wage increase? If not, what's preventing it? Other workers will work cheap. See, it doesn't matter what you think your time is worth. The supply of people willing to work is what determines what it is worth. Minimum wage jobs can literally be done by almost anyone who is not me…

The key point is that employers have job openings they can't fill [1]. If you are correct that other workers are willing to work that cheap, then the jobs would be filled. Workers exist but are unwilling to work that cheap, so they're idle while employers have unfilled jobs. Whenever you see a news story that says "employers having difficulties finding qualified workers," you can safely replace that phrase with "empl…

Thanks, your clarification is helpful. I think that it's more accurate to say, rather than "employers are unwilling to pay the market rate for labor," that "at the market rate for labor, employers have other options than employing workers."

Either they decide that the work is not worth doing at the higher cost, or they have some way to get it done other than directly hiring people to do it (automating, outsourcing, assigning more tasks to current employees, etc.)

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